j0nathan225

Savannah, Ga "demo ride"?

21 posts in this topic

I've taken an interest to the CT and was hoping to see if anyone is in the Savannah area and would let me go up with them one day or atleast take a look around in person?

By the way I just joined the forum my names is Jon. Davis I have a PPL & a commercial rotorcraft w/ instruments rating (blackhawk pilot for work). Looking to buy an aircraft in 1-2 years, but the aircraft type changes often, last research bender was on vintage Mooneys.

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Greetings j0nathan225 .  I'm in Michigan and can't be much help for your "demo" ride.  I'm sure someone will chime in that's in your area.  CAUTION!  Demo rides in Flight Design aircraft may be dangerous to your bank account!  <_<

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Oh I'm sure they are unkind to the bank account. I should also mention I did my PPL in a AP22 (Valor SLSA) and now mostly fly a 172, normal load out is me or me + wife hence the consideration of a CTLS. I would like the ability to do limited ifr/imc, non-convective stuff, which seems difficult if not impossible for the CTs.

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You can not do IMC in a SLSA manufactured after 2010. If was manufactured before that you might be able to do some IMC, but I would be real cautious of lightning. The CT doesn't have lightning protection.

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14 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

You can not do IMC in a SLSA manufactured after 2010. If was manufactured before that you might be able to do some IMC, but I would be real cautious of lightning. The CT doesn't have lightning protection.

Mostly true.  If you convert to E-LSA and get the right DAR, you can do IMC in a CT.  The new operating limitations I was issued on my CTSW allow IFR flight if equipped properly.  

Whether such flights are advisable or not is a different question...

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15 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Mostly true.  If you convert to E-LSA and get the right DAR, you can do IMC in a CT.  The new operating limitations I was issued on my CTSW allow IFR flight if equipped properly.  

Whether such flights are advisable or not is a different question...

What I said is completely true, I only spoke of SLSA not ELSA. Yes ELSA can have it added to their operating limitations. I only mentioned the CT to say it doesn't have lightning protection. I do know of a late 2008 CTLS SLSA that was used as a IFR trainer, and they did fly in IMC weather conditions. IIRC it had a Garmin 530w and the required test of CFR 91.411 and 91.413.

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11 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

What I said is completely true, I only spoke of SLSA not ELSA. Yes ELSA can have it added to their operating limitations. I only mentioned the CT to say it doesn't have lightning protection. I do know of a late 2008 CTLS SLSA that was used as a IFR trainer, and they did fly in IMC weather conditions. IIRC it had a Garmin 530w and the required test of CFR 91.411 and 91.413.

I missed that you wrote SLSA in your post, sorry, yes you are correct.  My post of course only applies to E-LSA.

I just wanted to express there is at least one way to do it if your heart is set on a CT (or other LSA).

Tom, did the 2008 LS you mentioned have a heated pitot or other equipment other than the 530W and pitot/static check?  Not sure how much of that would be required to make you legal.

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3 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I missed that you wrote SLSA in your post, sorry, yes you are correct.  My post of course only applies to E-LSA.

I just wanted to express there is at least one way to do it if your heart is set on a CT (or other LSA).

It was my understanding that since FD specified VFR only, that even if E-LSA, IFR flight was not legal.  This is based mostly on my very limited reading of regs, and some Dan Johnson articles about some of the very few LSA manufacturers that "allow" IFR flight (e.g., Bristell). This is of interest to me since I would love the ability to fly through and then above the very low, thin layer of clouds that persists most of winter here in Michigan, after, of course, the proper instrument training.

Here is a DJ summary:

https://www.bydanjohnson.com/a-raging-debate-ifr-imc-vmc-and-lsa/

I interpreted the statement "...if a manufacturer said it does not want its airplanes flown IFR, that’s the end of it… no IFR for that brand," to include E-LSA also.  Not correct?

Before I trigger a bunch of responses about the wisdom of flying into IMC, I want to reiterate that I'm talking about the desire to fly through "soft" IMC -- no convective activity, no possibility of icing, nothing more than a thin layer of clouds to get above it.

Also, sorry to j0nathan225 for hijacking the topic.  Hopefully you'll find a ride in a CT!

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JLang, that is not what the DAR told me.  Once you go E-LSA, your airplane is no longer in the Light Sport category, it's in the Experimental category.  As such it has the same limits as anything else in the experimental category.  There are no restrictions because you are no longer bound by the factory guidance and LOA/MRA process.  If I decide to saw off the gear legs and install ice skates instead, I can and the factory can't stop me.  Likewise if the factory says "no IFR" I'm not bound to that because I'm now flying an experimental that doesn't require factory approval to fly IFR.  The only restrictions then become having a properly equipped airplane by the FARs and a properly rated pilot.

This is what I was told by two different DARs.  It doesn't really affect me since I can't fly IFR, but if it's wrong I'd like to see it in writing from the FAA since that would contradict my operating limitations.   

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2 hours ago, JLang said:

It was my understanding that since FD specified VFR only, that even if E-LSA, IFR flight was not legal.  This is based mostly on my very limited reading of regs, and some Dan Johnson articles about some of the very few LSA manufacturers that "allow" IFR flight (e.g., Bristell). This is of interest to me since I would love the ability to fly through and then above the very low, thin layer of clouds that persists most of winter here in Michigan, after, of course, the proper instrument training.

Here is a DJ summary:

https://www.bydanjohnson.com/a-raging-debate-ifr-imc-vmc-and-lsa/

I interpreted the statement "...if a manufacturer said it does not want its airplanes flown IFR, that’s the end of it… no IFR for that brand," to include E-LSA also.  Not correct?

Before I trigger a bunch of responses about the wisdom of flying into IMC, I want to reiterate that I'm talking about the desire to fly through "soft" IMC -- no convective activity, no possibility of icing, nothing more than a thin layer of clouds to get above it.

Also, sorry to j0nathan225 for hijacking the topic.  Hopefully you'll find a ride in a CT!

No apology necessary, great topic and discussion. I'm also interested in hearing this, I agree "soft" IMC just cloud layers.

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4 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

JLang, that is not what the DAR told me.  Once you go E-LSA, your airplane is no longer in the Light Sport category, it's in the Experimental category.  As such it has the same limits as anything else in the experimental category.  There are no restrictions because you are no longer bound by the factory guidance and LOA/MRA process.  If I decide to saw off the gear legs and install ice skates instead, I can and the factory can't stop me.  Likewise if the factory says "no IFR" I'm not bound to that because I'm now flying an experimental that doesn't require factory approval to fly IFR.  The only restrictions then become having a properly equipped airplane by the FARs and a properly rated pilot.

This is what I was told by two different DARs.  It doesn't really affect me since I can't fly IFR, but if it's wrong I'd like to see it in writing from the FAA since that would contradict my operating limitations.   

Thanks, that is great to hear.  I will definitely research this more.

 

Tom, you said only before 2010.  What changed then?

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12 hours ago, JLang said:

Tom, you said only before 2010.  What changed then?

The article kind of covers this topic. In 2010 ASTM changed their standard to prohibit flight in IMC. I don't know the specific date that the change happened, but it basically went into effect when the FAA adopted the new standards. Any SLSA built before this time it was up to the manufacturer to set the limitation on whether it could be flown in IMC conditions. The reason for the change was a few cases of problems occurring on IFR flights with SLSA aircraft. One if my memory serves me correctly was a CTSW that had it's fuel vent tubes ice over and they had fuel starvation while on a IFR flight plan. They made an uneventful landing, but the stage was set so to say.

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2 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

The article kind of covers this topic. In 2010 ASTM changed their standard to prohibit flight in IMC. I don't know the specific date that the change happened, but it basically went into effect when the FAA adopted the new standards. Any SLSA built before this time it was up to the manufacturer to set the limitation on whether it could be flown in IMC conditions. The reason for the change was a few cases of problems occurring on IFR flights with SLSA aircraft. One if my memory serves me correctly was a CTSW that had it's fuel vent tubes ice over and they had fuel starvation while on a IFR flight plan. They made an uneventful landing, but the stage was set so to say.

I remember that, IIRC the only IFR-authorized S-LSA airplanes that were sold were some Zenith 601XL airframes, and they are still IFR-legal if you can find one made before the cutoff date with the right operating limitations.

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1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I remember that, IIRC the only IFR-authorized S-LSA airplanes that were sold were some Zenith 601XL airframes, and they are still IFR-legal if you can find one made before the cutoff date with the right operating limitations.

That was their claim, because of the type certified Continental engine. I don't know how many manufacturers limited flight in IMC in their operators manual.

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Jon,

I'll trade you a ride in my CTSW for a ride in the Blackhawk.:)

Actually it's been 30 years since I have been in a Blackhawk. (Ex 6th Cav Brigade Surgeon)

If we ever get some good weather I could probably get down there from Aiken, SC for a demo.

 

Rich

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, ls6pilot said:

Jon,

I'll trade you a ride in my CTSW for a ride in the Blackhawk.:)

Actually it's been 30 years since I have been in a Blackhawk. (Ex 6th Cav Brigade Surgeon)

If we ever get some good weather I could probably get down there from Aiken, SC for a demo.

 

Rich

 

 

 

I can definitely get you in a not cranked UH60 and show you around HAAF, I can't even get my wife on a flight these days. I'm definitely interested in a ride, I could fly a Cessna up to Aiken possibly, again when this WX clears.

-Jon. 

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2 hours ago, j0nathan225 said:

I can definitely get you in a not cranked UH60 and show you around HAAF, I can't even get my wife on a flight these days. I'm definitely interested in a ride, I could fly a Cessna up to Aiken possibly, again when this WX clears.

-Jon. 

If you keep me in the loop and let me know when ya'll get together, I might be able to meet you depending on timing...I'm only an hour or less away by CT.  Then you could have two different CTSWs to look at and/or fly in.

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Sounds good Andy and Jon. What is everyone's  work schedule? 

I just started working a 4 day week :D so i am free most fri,sat,sun.

 

Rich

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On 8/10/2017 at 8:24 PM, ls6pilot said:

Sounds good Andy and Jon. What is everyone's  work schedule? 

I just started working a 4 day week :D so i am free most fri,sat,sun.

 

Rich

Rich Thank you for the ride and lunch. Hope to fly up there again before October. CT's are looking like a real option especially if I can get one under ~50k late next year perhaps. 

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4 hours ago, j0nathan225 said:

Rich Thank you for the ride and lunch. Hope to fly up there again before October. CT's are looking like a real option especially if I can get one under ~50k late next year perhaps. 

Sorry I missed you guys today; Weather hear was terrible until after 11pm.  Hopefully I can make the next meet.   

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