Ed Cesnalis Posted September 2, 2017 Report Share Posted September 2, 2017 We have 2 choices in cruise, fly with our nose in the wind or fly with a correction to manage fuel over time. I have landed with an empty tank enough times to not be concerned, it works fine. I prefer to cruise with my nose in the wind and let the fuel do what it wants. I only manage fuel if I'm low. Nose in the wind is more efficient and results in faster cruise at the same throttle setting and mentally I feel like I'm doing a better job as a pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 2, 2017 Report Share Posted September 2, 2017 If I am going somewhere I normally use the autopilot. With the autopilot on I visually look at the wingtips and trim the rudder so they are level with the horizon. I have done this for years and it has served me well in keeping the fuel balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Tom Baker said: If I am going somewhere I normally use the autopilot. With the autopilot on I visually look at the wingtips and trim the rudder so they are level with the horizon. I have done this for years and it has served me well in keeping the fuel balanced. If keeping your nose in the wind keeps your fuel balanced then you don't have to choose. What if you had to consider using Roger's advice of flying 1/2 ball out to keep your fuel balanced, would you do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 2, 2017 Report Share Posted September 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said: If keeping your nose in the wind keeps your fuel balanced then you don't have to choose. What if you had to consider using Roger's advice of flying 1/2 ball out to keep your fuel balanced, would you do it? It has been a while since I have done any cross country in the CT, but I seem to recall the ball usually being out by about a 1/2 ball when I used my method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2017 24 minutes ago, Tom Baker said: It has been a while since I have done any cross country in the CT, but I seem to recall the ball usually being out by about a 1/2 ball when I used my method. If you choose AP and wings level it sounds as though you are choosing to be efficient but if it results in the ball being 1/2 out something is off. Maybe you are skidding but not enough to where you see the AP holding an opposite bank to counter it. Of maybe your ball is off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 On 9/2/2017 at 11:21 AM, Ed Cesnalis said: Nose in the wind is more efficient and results in faster cruise at the same throttle setting and mentally I feel like I'm doing a better job as a pilot. I know this MUST be true from a drag perspective. The reason slips are so effective at losing altitude for landing is that they introduce a large amount of drag. This must also be at play when slipping in cruise to manage fuel. However, in practice I see no speed difference with a 0.5 - 1 ball slip in and cruising with coordination as perfect as I can get it. It is probably because that small amount of slip is not enough to cause a noticeable loss of speed. I also have the small wheels, so my drag profile might be lower that most CTs with tundra wheels. I have tested this in calm air. Get a good stable speed, record it, then slip enough to transfer fuel. Wait five minutes for speed to re-stabilize, record. Remove slip, wait five minutes, record speed. I have seen no loss of speed doing this, not one knot. All numbers recorded at same altitude and rpm. In fact used autopilot to keep things stable and consistent. Surprised the hell out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 11 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said: I know this MUST be true from a drag perspective. The reason slips are so effective at losing altitude for landing is that they introduce a large amount of drag. This must also be at play when slipping in cruise to manage fuel. However, in practice I see no speed difference with a 0.5 - 1 ball slip in and cruising with coordination as perfect as I can get it. It is probably because that small amount of slip is not enough to cause a noticeable loss of speed. I also have the small wheels, so my drag profile might be lower that most CTs with tundra wheels. I have tested this in calm air. Get a good stable speed, record it, then slip enough to transfer fuel. Wait five minutes for speed to re-stabilize, record. Remove slip, wait five minutes, record speed. I have seen no loss of speed doing this, not one knot. All numbers recorded at same altitude and rpm. In fact used autopilot to keep things stable and consistent. Surprised the hell out of me. I totally agree, theory and practice seem to deviate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 Andy, did you gather data with a slip to both sides? I slipped while in cruse yesterday (-6 flaps, 5200 rpm). With the ball one full diameter to the right (i.e., left edge of ball just clear of the vertical post), I had no demonstrable change in IAS. But, with the ball one full diameter to the left, I had, repeatedly, 1-2 kts loss of IAS (I think I am remembering my left versus right correctly). The point is that with one slip direction, I had no change in IAS - just as you report. With slip in the other direction, I did have a change in airspeed. This was completely surprising to me. I expected the slip effect on airspeed to be similar regardless of left versus right slip. I still don't understand why the effects was asymmetrical, my first approach will be to consider the rotating propeller slipstream. 2006 CTsw, Tundra gear without wheel fairings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 24 minutes ago, FredG said: Andy, did you gather data with a slip to both sides? I slipped while in cruse yesterday (-6 flaps, 5200 rpm). With the ball one full diameter to the right (i.e., left edge of ball just clear of the vertical post), I had no demonstrable change in IAS. But, with the ball one full diameter to the left, I had, repeatedly, 1-2 kts loss of IAS (I think I am remembering my left versus right correctly). The point is that with one slip direction, I had no change in IAS - just as you report. With slip in the other direction, I did have a change in airspeed. This was completely surprising to me. I expected the slip effect on airspeed to be similar regardless of left versus right slip. I still don't understand why the effects was asymmetrical, my first approach will be to consider the rotating propeller slipstream. 2006 CTsw, Tundra gear without wheel fairings. Could be ball calibration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 Ed, could be, but I have calibrated the ball carefully. Regardless, I'd be curious if this occurs to other airplanes. If no, then it's idiosyncratic to my plane. If yes, then it is a feature of the airplane. I'd like to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 Fred, yes me too. I often question why I favor slipping one direction over the other, maybe its not just me but the design? I curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Welsch Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 Could be location of pitot tube relative to direction of slip. prw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 1 hour ago, FredG said: Andy, did you gather data with a slip to both sides? I slipped while in cruse yesterday (-6 flaps, 5200 rpm). With the ball one full diameter to the right (i.e., left edge of ball just clear of the vertical post), I had no demonstrable change in IAS. But, with the ball one full diameter to the left, I had, repeatedly, 1-2 kts loss of IAS (I think I am remembering my left versus right correctly). The point is that with one slip direction, I had no change in IAS - just as you report. With slip in the other direction, I did have a change in airspeed. This was completely surprising to me. I expected the slip effect on airspeed to be similar regardless of left versus right slip. I still don't understand why the effects was asymmetrical, my first approach will be to consider the rotating propeller slipstream. 2006 CTsw, Tundra gear without wheel fairings. I have done both and not seen anything, but I will do some more testing. I agree the location of the pitot could skew the results. Also, your 1-2kt change to one side is almost "margin of error" small. It's there, but hard to say if it's *really* due to the slip or some other change in conditions. I also wonder what the best measure of this would be...IAS? TAS? GS (probably not -- too variable)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 36 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said: Fred, yes me too. I often question why I favor slipping one direction over the other, maybe its not just me but the design? I curious. I always slip using right rudder / left aileron when landing. Nothing to do with the handling of the airplane, I just find it gives me a much better, unobstructed view of the landing zone out the left window, rather than looking across the cockpit and out the right window. The underside of my left wing & flap, and left wheel pant always require more cleaning than the rest of the airplane for this reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said: I always slip using right rudder / left aileron when landing. Nothing to do with the handling of the airplane, I just find it gives me a much better, unobstructed view of the landing zone out the left window, rather than looking across the cockpit and out the right window. The underside of my left wing & flap, and left wheel pant always require more cleaning than the rest of the airplane for this reason! Really? I favor the same side but when there is a right crosswind I put the right wing down. In fact its not even a decision I'm aware of its intuitive. It begins on approach with the rudder ( I mostly do strait ins) transitioning from cruise to final at some point I go from crab to slip and align the nose first then put the wing down. Sometime I run out of rudder before I get aligned and that gives me a creepy feeling in my gut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 Could the difference possibly be related to the spiral slip stream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 Andy, yes, the effect of L vs R slip is not large. But I repeated the slip both ways several time for several minutes. The effect was small but repeatable. All testing was done under same conditions in same direction of flight. I tested with AP engaged and separately used rudder pedal pressure and rudder trim adjustment to hold the ball in the desired location. I thought about the pitot tube, but the slip angle was so minimal with one ball out that it is hard to imagine an asymmetric effect on the pitot. Still, could be. Tom, I think that is possible (I mentioned it in my post above). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 When I learned to fly I preferred slips to the left. I think the reason why is because I preferred pushing the stick rather than pulling it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 2 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said: Sometime I run out of rudder before I get aligned and that gives me a creepy feeling in my gut. That being the case . . . what action could you take to provide yourself more rudder authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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