Panel Layout Opinion

[S3flyer]

I have dual Dynon D-100's in my Sting along with 2.25in analog AI, T&B and Alt (See Attached). I also have the Dynon AP and am thinking about adding the AP-74 which is a 4.5in x 1.5in external AP controller that can be either vertically or horizontally oriented. There might be room to the left of the pilot D-100 (vertically installed) but a better/cleaner place to me is centered below the D-100. I'd need to remove the analog gauges to do this.

 

Like most of you, I learned to fly quite a few years ago before the advent of glass panels so I kind of liked the idea of having gauges as a tertiary backup. I'm sure this is overkill given each D-100 is independent with a battery backup, I also have the 496 and fly with an iPad with Foreflight. So I've got multiple hours in the advent of a power outage.

 

My question to glass panel flyers -- do y'all keep analog around or is it time to pull them out?

[Jim]

Here's what I did. I think the HS34 is the same size as the AP panel. Note that this layout is very tight. There's some frustration getting the nylock nuts on the back of the instruments where they butt up next to the Dynon. I think it was worth it though.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Dave,

 

Looks like you may have enough room on the far left side without loosing anything. Most of us have both glass and a few analog gauges. Why do you have 2 D100's? Why not a D100 and a D120 EMS?

[S3flyer]

Probably do have the room -- just don't know yet how crowded it would be. I like a 'clean' panel. I'm actually still debating on whether to add the external control since you can completely control the AP from the Dynon itself.

 

Why the dual D-100's? That's the way this particular plane was equipped. I was looking for a glass panel and this one was 'on the lot' configured with two D-100's. I would've gone with the D-120 but all the Stings at the time came with a 'Greenline EMS' which was basically a specially configured unit from I-K technologies. Nice unit. No reason to replace (or spend the $$$ for no functional advantage).

 

It is kind of odd -- it would make sense to have analog backup if equipped with D-100/D-120 but with 2 D-100's you already have an EFIS backup. The gauges really provide negligible value, to me.

[AUVRAY MICHEL]

Hello all, I have CTSW and search left panel drawing file (any format) to modify my panel.

I like Jim solution.

my email mau11@orange.fr

many thanks

Michel AUVRAY

[Runtoeat]

Ouvray, I just made a new left panel for my CTSW and have the original panel on my work bench.  I can make a trace (outline) of this and send it to you.  Let me know if you would want the trace.

[gbigs]

I have dual Dynon D-100's in my Sting along with 2.25in analog AI, T&B and Alt (See Attached). I also have the Dynon AP and am thinking about adding the AP-74 which is a 4.5in x 1.5in external AP controller that can be either vertically or horizontally oriented. There might be room to the left of the pilot D-100 (vertically installed) but a better/cleaner place to me is centered below the D-100. I'd need to remove the analog gauges to do this.

 

Like most of you, I learned to fly quite a few years ago before the advent of glass panels so I kind of liked the idea of having gauges as a tertiary backup. I'm sure this is overkill given each D-100 is independent with a battery backup, I also have the 496 and fly with an iPad with Foreflight. So I've got multiple hours in the advent of a power outage.

 

My question to glass panel flyers -- do y'all keep analog around or is it time to pull them out?

 

No backups are required for SLSA.  My new CIrrus SR22T has a Mid-Continent MD302 glass panel backup to the G1000/Perspective glass panels. 

[Ed Cesnalis]

My CTSW was delivered with analog gauges only, ASI, VSI, Altimeter and slip/skid ball.  No backups.

[gbigs]

What is your reference on that?

 

Certified Part 23 aircraft require either steam or glass panel backup with a separate battery/power supply from the primary panel. And be connected to the aircraft pitot and static sensors.

 

Here is the Flight Design Dynon setup....no backups are present to the PFD/MFD.  The Garmin 796 is a portable and is not connected to the pitot or static sensor on the plane. 

[S3flyer]

Bill -- I guess I'd challenge you to find the applicable far that requires backup instruments for VFR flight.  FAR 91.205 is, I believe, the relevant reg and it is silent as to backups.  Burgers is correct that backups are required in Part 23 aircraft that have glass panels.  Would not be a stretch to assume that ASTM standards are similar to Part 23 but I don't think any of us have the ASTM docs.

[FlyingMonkey]

I'm assuming that to comply with FARs, if the ASTM standards allowed IFR flight for SLSA/ELSA, backups *would* be required for IFR unless some exception that that requirement were added to the FARs.

[Tom Baker]

II don't have a copy, but it is my understanding from talking to people who do have that ASTM does have some requirements that go beyond the FAR's. For example if you have an electronic display you have to have a back up airspeed and altimeter. With the dual Skyview airplanes this accomplished with the dual AHARS. With the old D100 it is done with the small steam gauges. There are other ASTM requirements that differ from the FAR's. For example you need some type of attitude display for night flight. If it is an electronic display like the D100 it mush have a back up battery.

 

This is one of the reasons you need a MRA from the manufacturer for changes. They have to make sure the change you want to make is ASTM compliant.

[gbigs]

Concur.

 

 

WRT S-LSA, I have not found an answer to my question, either way. Therefore, I guess omission relieves any requirement. So up until this point, I guess I would have to agree with Burger's assertion. I do not have access to the ASTM standards either.

That withstanding, Burger's panel actually does have a backup. He has two independent Skyview displays, fed from separate sources . Both are backups to one another.

 

The dual panel and dual ADHRS are redundant and do act as backups.  But certified aircraft have dual panels (G1000s) and still have a third backup of an independent set of instruments either in digital or analog form.    Some would say an iPad or Android device with GPS and Foreflight/Garmin Pilot are also backups and they are, but the FAA says the tablets can only be legally used as an EFB and not a backup PFD.

[Duane Jefts]

Two Dynon's provide backup for each other and if you really get desperate, the Garmin 796 has a display that is also flyable as a pfd.   Burgers has that as well.

[FlyingMonkey]

The dual panel and dual ADHRS are redundant and do act as backups.  But certified aircraft have dual panels (G1000s) and still have a third backup of an independent set of instruments either in digital or analog form.    Some would say an iPad or Android device with GPS and Foreflight/Garmin Pilot are also backups and they are, but the FAA says the tablets can only be legally used as an EFB and not a backup PFD.

 

We have been through this, you cannot cite a FAR that says anything about tablet use as PFD.  It's not prohibited, and has been done on some experimentals.

[FlyingMonkey]

BTW, on my last flight review the first thing the instructor did on rotation was to pop the circuit breaker to my D-100.  He looked at me and said "leave it off, we won't be using it today".  I flew the whole flight, including several approaches and landings with just the backup airspeed and altimeter.  It was a non-issue, though the backups are a little low in my sight line and it's weird to look at a big dark square in the panel.  I recommend flying a flight occasionally with the gizmos turned off; it's a good confidence builder.

 

You don't even really need backups.  When I was in training in a steam gauge Tecnam, one of my instructors slapped a cover on the airspeed indicator when I was abeam the numbers to land and said "your airspeed just failed, fly your normal pattern and land".  On short final he said "what's your airspeed?" and I replied "about 60 knots."  He uncovered the gauge and I was right on the money.  You really can fly and land these small airplanes by feel alone, if need be.  

[Ed Cesnalis]

A CT is a 'pitch attitude airplane'  I fly very much by pitch attitude.

 

TIP:  Correct pitch in a CTSW for approaching with 30* flaps is achieved when your drooped wing tip becomes level.

[FlyingMonkey]

Thanks CharlieTango, that's a good rule of thumb to judge by in event of an instrumentation failure such as a blocked pitot tube.

[gbigs]

We have been through this, you cannot cite a FAR that says anything about tablet use as PFD.  It's not prohibited, and has been done on some experimentals.

 

You are making a false argument by insisting on a FAR for the tablet use as a PFD.  The FAA has issued two ACs on the subject and they clearly state the FAA does not accept a tablet as a backup or substitute for a PFD.

 

The subject here is about backup avionics to the primary avionics.  In the SLSA world there is no requirement for a backup likely because none of the SLSA are allowed to fly in IMC.  In the FD CT the main displays are all on the same power and batteries.  They have a backup capability in regard to a unit failure but not in regard to a power system failure.

 

In regard to the simulated six pack the Garmin 796 can make there is no MFD engine monitoring in that mode.  The FD can get down if in day VFR flight no doubt, but there would be danger flying pilotage and pitch at night or trying to get over mountains or a long stetch of water.  But them we do have that parachute....

 

In a certified plane like the Cirrus SR22T I just bought there is the same redundancy in the panel, two alternators, two batteries and three buses to allow some level of partial power loss.  And there is a glass panel backup display that is on its own battery and power bus independent of the main systems.  IMC is prohibited if the second alternator dies (not allowed to fly into IMC with a single alternator).  And the backup panel is there to get you down in all conditions if the primary avionics fail entirely.

[gbigs]

AC's are not regulatory. They are indeed, "advisories," eh?

Please post those two AC's you are referring to.

 

ACs are 'clairications of the regulations'  according to the FAA...   I called the FSDO and got the same opinion from as stated in the AC that tablets are EFB only and may not be used as a backup PFD.  To be honest, i don't have a dog in this fight because the tablet in my cockpit is for flight planning, fuel checks and to keep my wife/copilot entertained.

[FlyingMonkey]

ACs are 'clairications of the regulations'  according to the FAA...   I called the FSDO and got the same opinion from as stated in the AC that tablets are EFB only and may not be used as a backup PFD.

 

BACKUP PFD.  Please tell me where it says they may not be a primary PFD.