Considering buying a CTSW

[ToddS]

I just joined this forum and I'm thinking of purchasing a 2006 CTSW. Very excited and nervous about it! I've been reading the posts about them here and elsewhere, and most people seem to be very happy with them. I trained in a Cessna 162 and got my SPL over the summer. As this would be my first plane, I'm trying to familiarize myself as much as possible with all the details of airpane ownership, and as many of you know, it's a lot. From financing, insurance, registration (LLC or personally), taxes and many other details.

 

As far as a 2006 CTSW, is there anything I need to be paying particular attention to? I keep hearing about nosewheel/landing gear issues. I assume there have been several AD's/SB's, are there any I need to make sure have been completed, besides all of them? I am aware of the Rotax five year maintenance. I am planning on having a pre-buy inspection done before purchasing. Unfortunately, the plane is not local which presents it's own set of issues like finding a trustworthy A&P to do the inspection among others.

 

I appreeciate any info you can share. And most importantly, how much do you love this plane? I really need to get in one and fly it. Sounds as if there are a few in AZ that I might be able to fly. Are any of you in CA?

 

Thanks!

 

Todd

[Tad Olmsted]

Hi Todd,

Welcome to our forum.

 

Roger Lee and I have the most experience working on CTs and can help you getting all your questions and concerns answered. Feel free to call me at anytime. I'm headed up to Tallahassee to recover another damaged CT so I have plenty of time on my hands today if you want to chat.

[coppercity]

Hi Todd,

 

I'm also available to answer any questions you might have. I have owned a CTSW and now a CTLS that I use to provide flight training and demo flights in AZ. Feel free to call, and if you have a chance to get to AZ we can get you up in one.

[CT4ME]

Hi Todd...

It's easy enough, on the FDUSA website, to get a listing of the SBs, and check to see which ones have been done. It should really already be in the maintenance log. I don't think that the CT has had any nose/gear problems that don't apply to all light aircraft: avoid really hard landings, nose landings, or plowing into bumpy ground or ditches! Much of the lore is due to lack of transition training on landings. Light planes tend to float, and require a bit of finesse. Early-on there were a number of bad landings by folks unaware of the differences. Students being taught by old-school CFIs, and high-time pilots thinking they knew everything. Those incidents seem to be happening far less these days.

Yes, there is a kit for the nose that replaces the spring with foam, which absorbs bumps better. And some 2006 units may have had weak metal in the nose gear that allowed play to develop. FD usually fixed that under warranty.

As you are seeing, most CT owners really love their planes. But let's be realistic... most pilots love whatever they fly! You'll find Flight Design is a good company and holding it's own in very tough times. The CT community is a great resource, certainly the best when it comes to LSA.

Welcome aboard!

Tim

ps- I'd really love to hear your comparison, after learning in a 162.

[Jim Meade]

If you google flight design california you'll get a number of leads close to home. Also, Rainbow Aviation in Corning has experts. They're north of you quite a ways. http://www.rainbowaviation.com/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Runtoeat]

Hi Tim, I sent you a question regarding the CT front end.

[johngpilot]

Todd,

If you have not done so you should sign up on the FDUSA web site to be added to the mailing list done by Flight Design. Here is that link http://flightdesignusa.com/contact-us/

[ToddS]

Hi guys and thanks for the warm welcome!

 

Spoke to the owner yesterday for over an hour and I'm getting more excited. There's also a good chance that another pilot/friend wants to partner up on the CTsw which will make it even more affordable. Luckily, I found a CTsw about an hour away at a flight school in El Monte(KEMT)which I'm very excited about. I'm going to fly her tomorrow if possible, or after Thanksgiving. Either way, I can't wait to see how the CT flies and handles. Especially today, where I just heard on the Sport Pilot forum a few mminutes ago, Cessna is going to have a MAJOR price increase on the Skycatcher for 2012 deliveries, up almost $40K to $149,900. WOW!!! What nerve.

 

http://aero-news.net/ANNTicker.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=e1c68b15-72aa-4c3a-88fe-23b08ee1af55

 

I appreciate all the tips. I checked all the SB's on the FD website and there aren't too many. The Rotax five year service has NOT been done yet. The firewall mod is complete and I was told all other SB's have been complied with. After I fly the CTsw, and if I like it, I'll probably make a bid the week after Thankgiving. Do you guys recommend at least five hours of training in the CT even though I'm a Sport Pilot? I'm leaning on doing at least five and will probably get my airspace endorsement while I'm at it as KEMT is Class D. This way, I'll be familiar with MY plane! LOL "My plane," that sounds so surreal!! (And friggin awesome!!)

 

Thanks again. Really seems to be a great group over here.

 

Todd

[Jim]

Just a quick note on landing gear issues. My 2006 CTSW has 1200 landings on it, mostly all student landings by me. The gear is still like-new and has not had any modifications or parts replaced. And I've made some pretty ugly landings in my early hours with the plane. So there really isn't any issue with the gear unless you do something very stupid. I strongly suggest that you learn how to do good, consistent soft-field landings at flaps 30, weather permitting. The plane can do them very nicely and it saves wear and tear on everything and everybody. One other thing you should know is to go around if a flaps 40 landing starts to go bad. Trying to do a nose-high soft field landing at flaps 40, you may or may not have a wing drop and the plane yaw toward the side of the runway. If it happens, don't try to fight it. Go to full throttle and go around. I'm pretty sure that this is the cause of several landing incidents early on with CT's.

 

I really, really like the CT. It's very fun to fly, it makes a great little helicopter flying 70 knots with a 45 degree bank angle and it cruises very nice and quiet at 100 knots (my personal sweet spot). One thing to keep in mind: It is not a trainer. I should know, I went from new student to private pilot in my airplane. I would never consider a flight school leaseback with a CT because of this.

[coppercity]

Hi Todd,

 

Having over a 1000hrs teaching in CTs I highly recommend doing at least 5 hrs of transition. The CT is not a SkyCatcher, it's much cleaner and sporty. It's not hard to fly its just a little different. Start with 0 and 15 degree flaps until you get use to the sight picture on landing, once you are comfortable judging the appropriate altitude above the runway then transition to 30 flaps. Many early accidents in CTs occurred with instructors trying to land the CT with full flaps because that's how they were trained. The CT will lose energy fast with full flaps and speed decreasing below 50kts power off. That is great for short field landings but if you mis judge the flare altitude you will land very hard. I have several training documents I have put together I would be happy to share with you if your interested.

[Gmoore7]

Hi Todd,

 

I just picked up my 2007 CTSW in Rhode Island 4 weeks ago flew back to South Texas with a CFI in 4 days. We had several unscheduled stops because of weather, but it was a good test for me and my new plane. It handled everything pretty well. I had to get use to how it is in windy conditions since it is so much lighter than the Cessna and Piper I use to fly.

 

My plane does have auto pilot and it sure makes flying much easier, but you can add it later if the one you are looking at does not have it. I really love the 5 gals per hour fuel burn. The plane is really comfortable and easy to fly. Just need to be more aware of the wind when landing and taxiing.

 

I flew Tecnam and did not like the way they handled at all. After putting 40 hours on my CTSW I can see why it is the #1 seller in LSA category. Be sure to have a CFI train you for a few hours before you go solo as these take a little getting use to especially the landings.

 

Please feel free to call me with any questions you may have. This Flier forum has been very helpful to me while I was looking for my CT and now I am glad to be a part of them and like all of them I am more than willing to help you. My number is 361-813-0057.

 

Good luck.

 

Gary

[ToddS]

Thanks for the heads up on landing configurations. I looked at the POH and supplemental training guide for the CTsw, and the suggested landing speed with full flaps is 54 kts, identical to what I shoot for in the 162, 53-55 to produce the most consistent landings. I've been watching a lot of videos of the CTsw landing and they seem very stable for the most part. I can't wait to feel it for myself. I'm on the schedule to fly it on Saturday. I've seen here and in other threads about the sight picture on landing. Yesterday a friend of mine took me up in a 1968 C150, and the sight picture was totally different than the 162. In the SkyCatcher you can see everything, including directly ahead. In the 150, you have to look to the side for ground reference. I 'assume' the CTsw is more like the SkyCatcher, but I'll see for myself next weekend.

 

A few other things I noticed, Vy is 78 kts. in the CT as opposed to 62 in the SkyCatcher. That surprised me a little. Stall speeds in were within 2 kts for all flap configurations. One question about flaps. Compared to the 162, you have to be slower in the CT to engage flaps. In the SkyCatcher you can go to the 1st notch (10') at 100kts, 2nd (25') at 85 and full flaps at 70. In the CTsw it 's 80 kts (15'), 62 (30') and 62 for full flaps(40'). I guess the question is what RPM do you guys use on downwind to allow the plane to descend and put your flaps in. For the SkyCatcher, I go to just under 1500 rpm which will allow the plane to descend with one notch. Anything more than that and you'll be high on approach. On short final if I'm at full flaps, just a little bit of power (1200-1300 rpm)produces a very stable approach to the runway. The CTsw training supplement suggests 10-20% power, what does that translate to for the Rotax? 2800-3000?

 

 

Thanks guys!

 

Todd

[coppercity]

Hi Todd,

 

Use 4500rpm on the initial approach to the pattern, that will get you below the first flap speed of 100kts to go from -6 to 0. Enter the downwind then set 3600-3800rpm, this will get you below the next flap speed of 80kts. Set 15 flaps just past midfield and you will be at 60 KTS abeam the numbers. Power to 2600-2800 at that point and start a 500 ft/min descent and you will maintain 60 KTS around the pattern from that point. Stick with 15 flaps for now and use 60 KTS on final slowing to 55 over the numbers, you will float a little but it will give you some time to play in the flare. Same procedures for 30 and 40 flap but the approach speed will be 55 slowing to 48-50 over the numbers.

 

Vy of 78 is for the -6 flap setting, initial climb will be at 0 flaps and a Vy of 73kts. Once clearing the pattern transition to -6 and 78, you can cruise climb at 90 as well. There is no need to use -6 in the pattern at all.

[207WF]

Todd:

 

This is amazing. Coppercities pattern numbers are EXACTLY what I use! I would second the advise of starting to learn with flaps zero as the default setting for landing. Go to flaps zero and 65 knots on downwind, then power off and 60 knots over the fence. This will seem more natural. After 700 hours in the CT (2600 total time) I am just now getting ready to try the transition to flaps 30 as my default approach. Take your time and have fun. WF

[Jim Meade]

Interesting on landing, as I generally use 30° with some 40°. 15° in a crosswind. I'll look into some of these numbers but have always felt it better to land at the slowest safe ground speed.

[bseager]

My experience has been that people new to the CTSW tend to really struggle with 30 (and especially 40) degrees of flap on landings. I completely agree to start with 0 (approach at 65 knots) and when comfortable move to 15 (approach at 60 knots) and so on. I generally only use 30 degrees (approach at 55 knots) for shorter fields, 15 is standard and I use 0 if there is a lot of crosswind. I never use the 40 degree setting and would not recommend it since your power off window for round out and touch down is very small and it offers no real advantage over the 30 degree setting.

[coppercity]

From my experience 30 in the SW is better for short fields, it actually lands slower and doesn't drop any wingtips compared to 40. The LS with 35 is perfect, in ground effect stall speeds of around 30-33kts and no tip drops at all.

[Jim]

I'm with Eric on flaps 30. A well-executed flaps 30 soft field landing with a CT is a thing of beauty and is worth your time to perfect. Touching down at 30 knots airspeed into a 15 knot headwind with the nose high is almost as good as sex.

 

I nailed one last week and a ground observer said she liked the way I hovered before I touched down...

[ToddS]

Interesting...as I look at the rpm's you guys are using, they are almost exactly double of what I use in the 162. 2250 in the pattern, cut to 1400 or so with the first notch of flaps and start the descesnt abeam the numbers. If light and variable, I go to second notch of flaps just before the base turn, usually around 70kts. Bring that in nice and stable and go full flaps just before the fence, looking to slow to around 53-55 kts, using just a little bit of power, maybe 1200-1300. This is very helpful for now at least I have some idea of what to expect Saturday. Awesome guys!

 

As far as the CTSW purchase is going, I'm getting more excited about it, and certainly more nervous too. LOL :wacko:

 

Todd

[Roger Fane]

Interesting...as I look at the rpm's you guys are using, they are almost exactly double of what I use in the 162.

 

Different engine.

[ToddS]

Different engine.

 

Yes, I understand that, and the numbers are almost exactly double. Just think that's pretty interesting, and easy to remember until I'm more familiar with the CT.

[Runtoeat]

I use 40 flaps for most of my landings and this is especially true for windy conditions. I have a beautiful view of the runway and have good control by using power when needed. Once I decide it's time to touch down, chopping power combined with the high drag of the flaps puts me where I want to go and keeps me on the ground. I would not have tried full flaps if it hadn't been for my friend teaching me how to do this. He has thousands of hours in helicopters and corporate jets and learned to fly in a Champ and owns a CTLS. High flap landings, if done properly, is a good way to go. I'm still learning and don't always get it right but it works for me.

[coppercity]

I would not recommend full flaps in windy conditions especially like we get here in the South West. You lose a lot of control authority to compensate for a gust, especially a crosswind gust at the low speeds encountered with full flaps. Plus the ailerons lose some deflection with the coupling with the flaps so maintaining centerline in a crosswind can be more difficult.

[Roger Lee]

I agree with Eric. The more wind the less flaps. 40 flaps under a lot of wind can really bite you one day. You have much more control in high winds with zero flaps and a little throttle. 40 flaps takes away that control with a bad cross wind.

[Runtoeat]

I understand what you're saying about full flaps in windy conditions. My personal limit is gusts @ 25kts and I use up to and including 40 flap settings. Anything above these wind speeds I use 15 flaps but really don't like to fly above these wind speeds. Using 40 flaps isn't something I would do without advice and teaching by my friend. I know that the wind conditions you guys see out West are beyond these speeds and understand that you are used to flying in high winds, especially in the higer elevations. I would like to fly with you sometime and learn your techniques.