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Those last five knots....


round_peg

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If you're thinking of trying to slip your CT and find that this isn't working, it because the CT is just about as slippery going sideways as forward. If you want to add drag during landing to quickly scrub off altitude, use the 30 and 40 flaps which FD provided us with for this purpose. This will bring the CT down as quickly and effectively, if not more so, than what you experienced with the 172. Plus, it gives one a very good view of the runway! Sorry, I know I'm not popular by advocating flaps but I couldn't stiffle myself :ph34r:

 

When I started with the CT, I made most of my landings with 30 flaps -- because, you know, that's the way I landed the Cessna. I wasn't getting it. I backed off to 15 for a bunch of landings and it got easier. Now I am back to using 30 some of the time and it's not bad. Not great but not bad. One thing that does somewhat baffle me is that I've tried adding 30 flaps on short final when I was high but didn't feel any increase in sink rate. Those barn door flaps on the Cessna seem more effective to me at inducing drag, but that's just my experience so far.

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Mitch, I don't use 30 flaps that often, mostly use either 15 or 40 flaps. If one lowers the flaps to 40 while on the ground and stands to look, there's a whole bunch of flaps there for a little plane. If you've used 40 flaps and don't like the sink rate, let me know and I'll go away and won't bother you anymore. But, if you have used mainly 30 and haven't used 40 flaps and you're a little bit high on final and are looking to loose some altitude quickly, go to 40 flaps, pull power, pitch down to hold 50 to 55 kts and see if you get a sink rate that is similar to the Cessna. Since "sink rate" is the altitude lost over time, consider the CT has lower forward speed during this manuver. If both the Cessna and CT are decending at 500 fpm, the CT will "loose" the 500' with less forward distance traveled. I have to believe if one starts at 500 feet and a quarter mile from the threshold with a Cessna and a CT - both at full flaps, the CT will land closest to the numbers - i.e., better "sink rate". If you REALLY want a sink rate, throw in a slip while at 40 flaps! The weather's been crummy and I can't fly so hashing this over is the next best thing!

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One caution on flaps 40. Don't try a soft-field landing. Most of the time it will work, but occasionally one wing will drop in the flair and yaw the nose around about 30 degrees. A go-around will fix it, opposite rudder won't.

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When I started with the CT, I made most of my landings with 30 flaps -- because, you know, that's the way I landed the Cessna. I wasn't getting it. I backed off to 15 for a bunch of landings and it got easier. Now I am back to using 30 some of the time and it's not bad. Not great but not bad. One thing that does somewhat baffle me is that I've tried adding 30 flaps on short final when I was high but didn't feel any increase in sink rate. Those barn door flaps on the Cessna seem more effective to me at inducing drag, but that's just my experience so far.

 

Your right, the descent rate with 30 flap is not significantly greater then with 15 flaps though the angle is. Adding flaps in the CT is really more like adding a 10kt headwind for each notch up to 30 deg. The approach speed at 30 and 40 is the same but the stall speed is a little lower at 30 flap. 40 flaps in the SW is good for spot landing because once you raise the nose in the flare power off it will be done flying. Watch for the slight wing drop though. In the SW I use 30 flap for shorts and softs when wind permits. The LS flap setting of 35deg is the perfect setting for shorts and soft wind permitting. When flying the bumpy afternoons here in southwest I use 0 flaps a lot, not only due to the high crosswinds but when you hit hefty thermals with 15 flaps or more flaps you end up climbing more than descending. 0 flaps gets you a greater descent rate and better penetrating speed. The low flap speed of the CT at the 30 and beyond range limits how much descent rate you can get.

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Happy to hear that I'm not completely imagining the effect of 30 flaps on decent rate (or lack thereof). I'll build myself up to 40 flaps as I feel more proficient with the lower flap settings. I'm sure the CT can land shorter than the Cessna all other things being equal. Well I know that since I've done some surprisingly short landings in the CT already with 15 flaps and little wind. The other thing I now realize that I miss on the CT is a stall warning horn. I got real used to listening to that sucker honk at me and knowing what musical note meant that the airplane was ready to touch (E-flat, I think).

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Yesterday I put some of the collective wisdom into action. In particular I paid very close attention to pitching for airspeed over the fence. That made all the difference in the world! I managed three slick and very short landings in a row with near calm wind and 15 flaps.

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Consistancy is certainly the key to success, but as we all know there are so many factors that effect the landing approach every landing ends up being different. This is especially true with very light airplanes, they are disrupted so much easier than a heavier faster aircraft. As you gain more experiience in your CT you will be able to see/feel things happen very quickly and you will be able to react quicker and more accuratly. Generally I agree that pitch is the most effective method of controlling speed on an approach but its really a combination of pitch and power that does the trick. You have taken the power out of the equation by doing power off appraoches which does make you work a little harder in the fact when your high you are getting back on glideslope by pitching the nose down. The CT will gain speed really quick when the nose is down so although your descent rate is a little greater your getting to the runway faster, have to recover from a steeper descent and have extra airspeed at the bottom, all lead to a long float or worse a balloon to a go around. Slips work well in the CT but they do de-stablize your approach by adding more work to your already busy realm of flight until they become second nature. The CT does land easier with some power on the approach and into the flare as long as the speed is consistant, power shallows the descent so the flare is not as drastic and is easier. If your restricted to a short approach try starting your descent a little sooner then abeam the numbers, or a lower downwind altitude. Go to idle a couple stripes before abeam in the downwind. With 15 flaps try to stay at 60 knots all the way from that point down to short final. At that point as you shallow the descent you should be able to hit 55 right over the numbers. If you end up high try slowing down a bit to 54 instead of diving at the runway, your descent rate will still be about the same but it will take a little longer to get to the runway giving you time to lose some more altitude. Worse case you go around and try again starting the descent a little sooner. Just something to try, youll find a technique that works for you, its really just more practice!

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Just to put the true short field capabilities of the CT in perspective, We land on a 1200ft runway several times a week and never use even half of it. When the winds are from the south the approach has 60ft tall power lines straight in, or 100 ft pine trees on the side, and if you are like me, I dont care for high voltage. I use full flaps full rudder slip, shove the nose down and hold her sideways until the roundout at 45 knts. It took a lot of landings to get comfortable flying at that speed and configuration that close to the ground, but once you are there the plane will come down like an elevator and you can spot land it. Best practice at alltiude to get the feel of it. Its not a bush plane, but close to it.

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Scrapman, I also use your technique as a practice for engine out landings or to get into small grass fields. I don't always get the timing right and sometimes require some throttle to keep from dropping the last few feet. After clearing the power lines, it doesn't appear that you have much runway left to work with if your timing isn't correct. Assuming that you don't always do your timing correctly too, do you normally let your CT drop more than you'd like or do you do a 'go 'round? If a 'go 'round is needed, the good thing about the CT is that it's ready to go back up with full throttle without the need to pull the flaps back up.

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I'm sure one day i will get "schooled" by this airplane, but i cant remember doing a go around for several years. With all the tricks in your bag that come with this plane, you really can squeeze it in just about anywhere. An approach that is so high you cant get down can be saved by a 360 if you commit early enough. I quess the plane is so honest in its characteristics, that you can really keep a serious descent rate right down to the ground and give her a little squirt of throttle if needed to arrest the sink and she will flare every time because of the great elevator authority even at slow speeds. The key to getting her down is still the full slip/full flap configuration with the nose shoved down. Passengers hate it BTW.

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A 360 on final? I don't know of any airport where that would not make you a permanent resident of the doghouse, or worse. For a variety of reasons I can't picture myself trying that, ever.

 

Passengers hate all slips in any airplane, but I think even I'd hate what you're describing! Nice to have in the bag of tricks, but as SOP I hope not.

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IF no one is at the airport in the pattern you should practice a 360 pattern entry. It is a lot easier than it sounds. A 360 entry into the final is a good way on an engine out situation when you are above a good landing spot with a lot of altitude. A towered airport will let you do it on request so long as no one is in a the pattern. I request full engine shut downs without any issues from towers so long as no one else is in the way.

So long as you don't cause anyone any issues and or request it from the tower no doghouse should be needed. Save that option for a bad day with the wife or girlfriend. rolleyes.giflaugh.gif

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On my check ride for sport pilot cert, the examiner pulled power and said, "OK, you don't have an engine, put this plane down". I picked a spot and got near touching down when he said, "close enough" and had me add power and climb. Next he said, "you did OK but here's how I would have done it". He demonstrated a 360 degree landing at the airport we were near. Up to this point, I had not heard of a 360 degree landing but after seeing it done, it made a lot of sense if one as some altitude when an emergency occurs. It allows time to manuver to set up for proper altitude and to get in position for landing. I can see how this would work well for landing in a short field too as Scrapman and Roger point out.

 

 

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It sounds like you are talking about what I would call an overhead landing. Yes, I did a few of them in training, and they can be done here if the pattern is clear and you make the proper calls. I thought you were suggesting a 360 on final.

 

As I mentioned above, my preferred approach is to pull power to idle downwind abeam the numbers. I think this is a good discipline. Using power can be treated as a luxury.

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Another update: Tried working on my slips in slow flight at altitude and came to the conclusion that all aileron and no rudder is plenty to get the job done. I tried some with opposite rudder and the effect was just too radical for my taste, especially when I tried them to the left. I found the sink rate I was looking for with neutral rudder. So with that practice under my harness I slipped right into a steeper final approach yesterday and it worked great. So it can be done (as everyone has already told me) -- just a matter of technique. I'm learning to appreciate the CT more every day. I may even have to stop referring to it as "the fork-tailed devil!"

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15° flaps for most occasions.

 

Where did your preference for 15º come from?

 

My thought on flaps is generally: Maximum flaps as consistent with conditions.

 

More flaps=slower touchdown speed=less inertia=safer.

 

Only common exception I can think of is gusty crosswinds. Even there, many planes land fine with full flaps (I'm thinking Cirrus here, cdon't know about the CT).

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Another update: Tried working on my slips in slow flight at altitude and came to the conclusion that all aileron and no rudder is plenty to get the job done.

 

I'm having trouble picturing this.

 

I mean, all aileron and no rudder has resulted in a turn in any plane I've had the pleasure to fly - NOT a slip.

 

A banked airplane pretty much has to turn unless opposite rudder is held. Right?

 

I'd think an hour or so with a competent instructor could clear a lot of this up, including the "last five knot" problem.

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Where did your preference for 15º come from?

 

My thought on flaps is generally: Maximum flaps as consistent with conditions.

 

More flaps=slower touchdown speed=less inertia=safer.

 

Only common exception I can think of is gusty crosswinds. Even there, many planes land fine with full flaps (I'm thinking Cirrus here, cdon't know about the CT).

 

15 flaps in the CT is quite slow and the safest to start with until you get use to how the CT handles. Full flaps is very slow at touchdown, I have had my LS down to 30 knots at touchdown which is great but you have to be cautious with crosswinds. One thing you may not understand about the CT is the flaps and ailerons are coupled so they droop as the flaps come down. This is great for low speed but it limits the amount of aileron authority you have to stop drifting during touchdown. Having played with the CT in plenty of crosswinds in all flap settings I dont recommend more than 15 flap for crosswinds in excess of 10kts. Crosswinds greater than 15kts should be done with 0 flap to ensure plenty of aileron authority to counter the drift.

 

I also have tons of time in the Cirrus and it is by far the easiest airplane ever to land. It is so stable at all flap settings, but it also approaches at 78kts and weighs in at 3400lbs!

 

You really can't appreciate the CT landing until you try it. It's a unique airplane, not hard to fly, just requires a little different techniques then a Cessna, Piper or Cirrus. Once you figure it out though it's an amazingly fun aircraft.

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I'm having trouble picturing this.

 

I mean, all aileron and no rudder has resulted in a turn in any plane I've had the pleasure to fly - NOT a slip.

 

A banked airplane pretty much has to turn unless opposite rudder is held. Right?

 

I'd think an hour or so with a competent instructor could clear a lot of this up, including the "last five knot" problem.

 

The CTSW has pretty significant adverse yaw, so I assume he means he is turning without coordinating with rudder. it also has significant yaw changes with power changes so you can be slipping easily with power idle, feet on the floor and a left traffic pattern. This little plane does make you learn what your feet are for!

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I'm not sure that the travel is limited, though the ailerons do seem to deflect less when your at full flaps. I was stating that the roll authority is less at the higher flap settings.

I think full travel at the -6 neutral position is down 12 deg and up 28 deg. I'll have to measure what it is when they are at the full flap setting. I don't see anything in the manual that addresses it.

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15 flaps in the CT is quite slow and the safest to start with until you get use to how the CT handles.

 

Law of Primacy and all that, in general I feel a student should be taught the "right" way from the beginning, even if its a bit tougher to learn. Of course, this assumes that full flaps is the "right" way.

 

My thought is that if you KNEW your next CT landing would involve a blowout or a broken axle or a locked brake or NO brakes, what would you want your touchdown speed to be? And since you can't preclude any of those events on your very next landing, land as if it were so! The difference between a 44k touchdown and a 39k touchdown is not insignificant from an inertia perpective (I'm thinking Sky Arrow here, plug in the right numbers for a CT).

 

You really can't appreciate the CT landing until you try it. It's a unique airplane, not hard to fly, just requires a little different techniques then a Cessna, Piper or Cirrus. Once you figure it out though it's an amazingly fun aircraft.

 

If there's anyone anywhere near Copperhill, TN, I'd love to get a couple hours in a CT. I'll pay for gas and buy lunch at El Rio!

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Fast Eddie, the 15 deg. flaps comes from the AOI. They warn against using full flaps except for very short runway, and only under favorable wind conditions.

 

Jim, The aileron travel is not limited, but the aileron trailing edge is lowered with the application of flaps. With full flaps and full aileron travel the upwind aileron in a cross wind will be almost even with the wing in a streamlined position. The downwind aileron will be deflected very far down creating lots of drag on the wrong side of the airplane, also with the trailing edge of the aileron going so low the angle of attack for this portion of wing is very high. As you approach the stall that downwind wing is going to stall sooner dropping the wing. If you are not right over the runway when this happens it makes for a very bad landing.

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Tom, good description of what's going on. I've been cautioned about using full flaps in Xwind but hadn't really gone into an analysis of why this can bite one in the butt. Your description gives a good picture of why one can get into trouble with full flaps. Although I've used full flaps many times in strong Xwinds. It seems that my CTSW has always had adequate flaps to correct for gusts above 20 kts and I have not experienced a downwind wing stalling out. I have always had enough aileron to bring the low wing up - so far. There are a lot of people here who have far more experience than I in all types of aircraft. I'm wondering if anyone has had personal experience or knows someone who has experienced a stall where they cannot raise the downwind wing in a CT? I do not ask this question to be a smart ass or a "show me" type of person but I ask it to determine if I need to stop using extended flaps in any Xwind over 10 kts as others have cautioned? Or, are the CT's aircraft that have been designed to be capable of recovery from a gust of Xwind that other aircraft cannot manage? I really am taking to heed the statements that the experienced pilots say here on the forum - especially those who have many hours in the CT and are training in these aircraft. Although I have made hundreds of landings in my CT, after reading this thread I have become more cautious than ever about using extended flaps during landings.

 

Round_peg. As you fly your CT, you're going to like it more and more, it will not fail to surprise you with it's capabilities and you will gain appreciation for how well FD has done designing this aircraft.

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