Pattern speeds/power settings

[cbreeze]

Greetings,

 

I just recently started flying the FD CTLS. Can someone please tell me some speeds and power settings when flying the pattern? I seem to recall this information posted somewhere but I have been unable to find it again. I have been flyiing for a number of years and I like the CTLS except, well, it is different.

 

Thanks in advance

 

cbreeze

[Jim Meade]

Oh, boy, are you going to get some differing opinions.

 

There are some useful documents on this Flight Design page:

 

http://flightdesignusa.com/flight-training/student-pilots/

 

Page 4-10 of the CTLS Operating Instructions has a pattern profile you may use as a point of departure.

 

http://documents.flightdesignusa.com/AF04300005_08.pdf

 

 

[CT4ME]

Initially, you'll want to find some magic numbers, as above. But you'll soon be comfortable changing it up quite a bit. Something like 4K RPM and 80kts up to base, chop most power and drop to 70kts on base, dropping down to 60 on short final, and down from there. You'll see considerable argument on power settings while landing. Some think a bit of power helps things (2300-2600), others subscribe to the no power theory. Once you get familiar, you'll like them all...

tim

[Ed Cesnalis]

...please tell me some speeds and power settings when flying the pattern...

 

Here's how I fly the pattern:

• Take off and initial climb, WOT 15 degrees, slight back pressure @ 30kts and let her fly as soon as she will, then I pitch down looking for 55kts then climbing at 58kts
• @650' AGL I retract flaps, trim climb at 66kts
• @100' less than TPA I begin to throttle back to arrest climb at TPA
• on downwind throttle back to achieve 80kts when abeam the numbers
• abeam the numbers deploy 15 degrees and close throttle, hold level attitude till 62kts
• @62kts, deploy 30 degrees flaps and pitch down ( drooped wing tips level on a ctsw ) and trim for 55kts
• flying tight pattern makes up for slow speed
• short final, hold 55 kts as long as possible, play chicken with the ground
• round out and flare are almost same event , avoid ballooning by pulling stick back slowly.
• don't allow the nose to come up unless you are slow enough to do so without balooning

At sea level or low altitude airports 55kts is my target over the fence, I then use a more gradual round out at a slower speed to eliminate that annoying float.

[bseager]

My experience after over 1000 landings in my 2006 CTSW is remarkably similar to Charlie Tango's and I agree with the suggested speeds for a 30 degree flap landing. However I would caution that if you do not have much experience landing the CT be cautious about using too much flap. You will find that at full flaps the round out and flare demands essentially a continuous action and if you are too high on the round out you better be prepared to add power or your arrival may be firmer than you would like. I have found that it is much easier to learn at 15 degrees or even zero flaps and if you come from landing Cessnas or Diamonds the experience will be very familiar if you use less flaps. For a 15 degree flap landing I come over the fence at 60 knots and for a zero flap landing 65. Less flaps will also help if there is any crosswind until you get used to how the CT handles at the different settings. In a very short period of time you will be comfortable at all settings and a well executed 30 degree flap landing is a thing of beauty with very low energy as you touch down making short field landings easy and safe.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Cbreeze,

 

I see you live in Wisconsin. If I were you I would find another CT owner there and spend 2-4 hours with them doing all kinds of landings. There are CT pilots there in your state and they may be close. If not close it would be worth your while to spend a day or two with them. I would not just grab a CFI and ask them to teach you if they don't have a lot of hours in the CT. The largest numbers of landing incidents have come from high time pilots and CFI's that think they can fly anything and an LSA must be like a toy. It is a light aircraft and handles faster and differently than larger and heavier aircraft. Some landing styles are more forgiving than others and require less finesse while you are learning. It may take you 40-60 hours to be really comfortable and I fully agree to start with the least flaps and work towards more flaps. Mistakes can be expensive and have long down times. Many people here have a slightly different style and some different speeds. They may all work, but start slow and learn them all to have them in your mental toolbox when an occasion to change things arise. If you would like to chat about all the difference give me a call anytime.

[cbreeze]

Thanks everyone who replied so far. The responses have been exactly what I have been looking for.

 

I have approx 1300 hrs. spread over a number of years. I have single, multi and seaplane ratings. I am getting checked out in this CTLS and very impressed with the airplane and it's performance. I have about 3 hours in the airplane and can certainly handle it in the air and I have no issues with the takeoffs. I just don't feel comfortable with the landings. I don't mean this as boasting but I can land almost anyother airplane without even thing about it. Strong, gusty winds don't bother me either. It just seems that the CTLS requires a lot more thought, on landing, than I am use to. My instructor feels that I can handle it but I don't share his confidence. My most recent landings have been the best. It seems like I have to initiate the flare much lower than I am use to and discovered that carrying a touch of power really helps me touching down. I certainly appreciate the tips offered here and will utilize them in future flights.

 

 

I really like the airplane and wouldn't mind buying one myself.

 

Cbreeze

[Ed Cesnalis]

cbreeze,

 

Perhaps you should not feel comfortable with the landings?

 

I'm just guessing here but if the CT is the lightest high performance airplane that you have ever flown then landing presents a whole new risk. I can liken this risk to standing at a hang-gliding launched clipped into a big light weight wing and worrying about the approaching dust-devil.

 

At some point when landing your ct you have to close your throttle and if there is wind sheer you are now vulnerable in a way that you never were before, your kinetic energy gets very low at some point and gusts can cause you to have to control your aircraft without adequate flying speed.

 

Its a bit of a new ball game that happens at a relatively low air and ground speed yet the event can happen too fast, especially if you haven't experienced a lot of CT landings. The sight picture is different, that alone requires adjustment.

 

Another huge difference is that I don't see my cowling as I approach and land. This means that there are fewer sight cues relative to my airplane and I am more dependent on sight cues that come from the appearance of the runway alone.

 

Have you spent a moment or 2 at the beginning of the runway letting the sight picture sink in? For me, my butt is closer to the runway then in most aircraft.

 

Final comment is that a CT in a level attitude, with 30 degrees is in a stall attitude, if you level out and are not very close its time to add power.

[coppercity]

Hi Cbreeze,

 

The CT is a little different in the landing, not hard just different. If you send me your email address I can provide you a document that I share with my students that you may find helpful. It has all the power settings and speeds we have found work well with our CTLS.

 

Regards

[cbreeze]

Hi Cbreeze,

 

The CT is a little different in the landing, not hard just different. If you send me your email address I can provide you a document that I share with my students that you may find helpful. It has all the power settings and speeds we have found work well with our CTLS.

 

Regards

 

 

coppercity,

 

I appreciate and will take you up on your offer. I will PM you my email.

 

Thanks much,

 

cbreeze

[CT4ME]

'while we're discussing speeds/rpm here, CharlieTango mentioned site picture. Most CT Fliers have initial difficulty figuring out alignment with the runway, probably because of the lack of cowling and rounded panel top. Also, with the unusual width of the cabin, you're sitting farther off-center.

It's been fairly common to put some sort of temporary indicator on the windscreen itself, showing proper alignment. I used two little dots of paper, torn from the sticky part of a post-it note. Other folks have used pin-striping tape or whatever.

Tim

[Runtoeat]

CBreeze, you've hit on a subject that will cause even the those who normally just "lurk" on this forum to immediatley dust off the keys and send you a reply. And, you cansee that I am included. The most fun in flying the CT is landing and you have a tremendous set of "tools" by way of flap settings and speeds to play with on the CT. It seems to me that 55kts is a "magic" speed to shoot for on short final for both CTSW and CTLS. You seem to have figured out that there's not much inertia with the CT and it is easy to get behind the power curve. You are correct when you say that carrying a small amount of engine speed helps during the final approach. Personally, my normal approach is to have the throttle at idle but to be ready to squeeze in a little bit if I've not done the little levelling off walz when down near the runway correctly and find my speed dropping and my sink rate too fast. If you're about to make your third contact with the runway on a particular landing and things are looking a little ugly, the throttle is also our friend in this situation and, no matter what flap setting one is in, full throttle will pull the CT up, up and away from the runway and allow one to set up for another attempt at landing after a go 'round.

[Jim Meade]

If one is coming in slow at idle and finds one's self a few feet too high and running out of airspeed and lift, simply ease the stick forward a little. The airspeed will pick up slightly, lift will be reestablished, descent continues and one initiates the level off and flare when ready. You only need a couple of knots change to get the plane nicely back in hand. It's all fairly gentle, small movements, just do them at the right time. Pushing the stick a little ahead that close to the ground seems counterintuitieve the first time or two, then seems very natural.

 

Heavier, legacy light aircraft seem to sink through the level off and stabilize closer to the ground. LSAs don't have the weight to do that so we tend to level off and flare too high. This is all compounded if one comes in too fast and has excess lift. Some address it by landing with power, essentially on the back side of the power curve. A 100hp engine in a 1320 lb airplane is pretty powerful. A 65 hp engine in a Piper Cub won't be as forgiving and one can not power one's way out of a bad setup as easily.

 

 

 

[Mick]

'while we're discussing speeds/rpm here, CharlieTango mentioned site picture. Most CT Fliers have initial difficulty figuring out alignment with the runway, probably because of the lack of cowling and rounded panel top. Also, with the unusual width of the cabin, you're sitting farther off-center.

It's been fairly common to put some sort of temporary indicator on the windscreen itself, showing proper alignment. I used two little dots of paper, torn from the sticky part of a post-it note. Other folks have used pin-striping tape or whatever.

Tim

I put a strip of color on top of the mushroom, parallel to the centerline, off the centerline the same distance as my nose, and it is a great help (even after 90 hours in my CTSW).

[Jim Meade]

I put a strip of color on top of the mushroom, parallel to the centerline, off the centerline the same distance as my nose, and it is a great help (even after 90 hours in my CTSW).

 

I'm interested in how the existence of the line, strip, series of dots, etc. affect one's focus point? My point is that in general, pilots are taught to judge their height off the ground by look way ahead, typically, at "the end of the runway". Does looking at the centerline aid cause one to focus very close up and therefore lose the benefit of the long angle which helps one judge height off the ground?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Doug G.]

I think it is two different things. One is to align w/ the runway and shifting your focus down the runway helps with the roundout and flare. I can do both on approach.

Doug.

[Mick]

Watch the runway as you normally would and your peripheral vision would use the "line up aid" in the same way as you would use the cowling in a 'tin can'. It's almost automatic.

[johngpilot]

This might be a very simple reply and summary but if you have to ask "what is the best"

 

then might I suggest you use 15 Degrees and 55KNOTS until you feel confident.

 

Simple rule of thumb might be to limit your flap setting to the number of hours in type. (ie (30 HRS = 30 Degrees)

 

In a CTLS I think recency of experience needs to have more weight if I have not flown in the past 60-90 days I go back to the 15 degree setting.

 

ESPECIALLY in a X-wind.

[Adam]

I'll leave the numbers, settings and techniques to the other pilots on the forum to debate.

 

One suggestion I'll add is to view the tons of videos on YouTube... I'd recommend getting a camera and mounting it in your cockpit at eye level. Here is an example from my old CTSW taken when I was learning how to land it. By reviewing your own videos you can learn and critique yourself and potentially get a different perspective (from the comfort of your sofa).

 

[FastEddieB]

My point is that in general, pilots are taught to judge their height off the ground by look way ahead, typically, at "the end of the runway".

 

In general, that's too far away, per both the FAA and me.

 

Here's an article I wrote for the Cirrus Owner's Group:

 

 

WHERE TO LOOK ON LANDING

 

Where should you look while landing a Cirrus? If your landings are consistent and you can accurately judge your height above the runway during the roundout and flare, just keep looking where you’re looking. If they could be better, read on.

 

As a flight instructor, I’m occasionally called upon to “troubleshoot” when a pilot is suffering inconsistent landings. Of course, in primary training the subject of where to look when landing always comes up.

 

WHERE NOT TO LOOK

 

I’ve had some pilots, including at least one flight instructor, advise that the pilot should gradually shift his view to the far end of the runway during the flare. I can think of two good reasons why this is not a good idea.

 

First, the far end of the runway is going to be at least a half mile away, and may literally be miles away. When looking at a point that distant, the angles involved in judging a foot or two of altitude are simply too small. Take a look at these two examples:

 

 

 

These were taken just past the numbers on runway 2 at Copperhill, TN (1A3), a 3,500’ runway. The photo on the left was taken with the camera roughly at eye height in a Cirrus. I climbed a ladder to take the photo on the right. (I “Photoshopped” a panel into the photos to make them more realistic.)

 

Can you tell, looking at the far end of the runway, how far up the ladder I was? One foot? Two feet? Ten feet?

 

Well, I was about five feet up the ladder in the second photo. I think it’s clear the visual information available looking at the far end of the runway makes accurate height judgment extremely difficult.

 

Second, in many airplanes you will simply not be able to see the far end of the runway in the landing attitude. Our planes are blessed with above–average visibility, but in a slow enough landing even a pilot of average stature at some point may see something like this (a real photo of a “full-stall” landing in an SR22):

 

 

OK, SO WHERE DO I LOOK?

 

To accurately judge height, we need to pull our vision closer to the plane, while simultaneously diverting it toward the runway edge. Exactly how far ahead of the depends on the plane’s speed, but I encourage my students to look 30 to 50 feet ahead of the plane, more or less at the runway edge.

 

Why not closer? Closer might work better, but for the fact that the ground becomes blurred.

 

Flight instructors sometimes note that their student’s night landings are better and more consistent than their daytime landings. The common explanation for this is the student’s vision is being pulled closer to the plane by the landing light – usually (and not coincidentally) right about where they should be looking in the first place!

 

One word of caution if you go out and practice looking ahead and to the side: our bodies tend to follow our eyes. If shifting your view to the left runway edge is new to you, you may find the nose of the plane being “pulled” that way. It’s subtle, and once you’re aware of it, it should be easy to compensate for.

 

Now, go have some fun!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Jim Meade]

Jim,

 

To keep things on the same topic, I was (and I think you were) talking about where to look during the roundout and the flare, not during the approach or even short final.

 

I disagree with looking as close to the aircraft as you advocate. I won't argue that one has to look at the very end of the runway - that is more accurately a general reference for "look way out there". . I don't agree that the stepladder picture is that hard to interpret. One reason for advising the student to look near the end of the runway is that in the older, slower planes we typically taught in (not a Cirrus) the cowl would just about cover the runway end when the pitch attitude was right just at stall/touchdown. They had to look there anyway. I never had any luck with students who tried to look off to the side. Even tail wheel students used peripheral vision rather than trying to look at an angle past the nose.

 

My experience in teaching night landings is the opposite of what you describe. Most new students bounce it on at night because their focus is at the end of the landing light and they come in at too steep an angle or they level off too high.. I always taught a couple of landings with no landing lights and usually one with no lights at all. Inevitably, students landed better with no landing lights because they tended to look way down the runway and let the runway edge lights provide their height information.

 

I reread the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook after reading your post and before writing this one. I see that the FAA likes a closer perspective than I taught. I'll agree to disagree with them. The use of a slight down-angle is natural, but at some point that has to be extended or one will look at the cowling.

 

Probably all of us land a little different than we say we do. Maybe I land using a shorter perspective than I think, but it's not my comprehension that I do, especially when I do my best landings. I feel my least consistent landings are done when I let my focus drift back too close to the airplane.

 

Since we are going to disagree on this, there is no need to tyr to persuade me that I am wrong and I won't try to persuade you to change. That will save everyone the boredom of watching us nit pick points. I'm willing to call mine the modified AFH version and yours is the extreme APH version.

 

 

 

 

 

[FastEddieB]

I'm not Jim, I'm Fast Eddie!

 

And I have no real need to convince anyone of anything. Much of this is technique, and when you find one that works, stick with it!

 

I found students who had trouble judging height (one landing flying on too fast, next ballooning 10 feet in the air) literally could not see what was going on. Either the angles were too small for them to appreciate them, or the panel at the end was blocking their view and the last bit of the flare was practically blind. Leveling off 1' off the runway should really not be that hard a task! But I would look over and see them craning their necks to see over the panel at the end, and when the pitch got to a certain point the plane would either land too soon or balloon or something, with little or no consistency.

 

I have a bunch of hours in the back of Citabrias, and found that when I was FORCED to look out to the side, it was, in fact the BEST place to look anyway!

 

Here's what I think you may have referred to - its the FAA's official take:

 

 

I believe there's been a study showing where pilots actually looked on landing - I'll see if I can find it via Google.

 

But again, not seeking to convince anyone of anything - just getting the info out there and saying what works for me!

[FastEddieB]

Found one:

 

http://www.humanfactors.illinois.edu/Reports&PapersPDFs/isap01/proced01.pdf

 

A quick "scan" reveals we could both extract some fodder from this one!

 

Also just found this, which seems to have some good info and diagrams:

 

http://www.sportpilot.org/learntofly/articles/081219_landings.html

[Runtoeat]

Eddie, I found your info enlightening and useful. Early in my short flying career I felt bad that I was not looking at the end of the runway when landing. The technique of looking far down the runway was what I understoood to be the proper way to set up prior to touch down yet it just didn't work for me. After the first few hours of training, I found myself focusing about 50 feet out with intermittent scans down to the end of the runway on short final. Just before roundout, I find myself looking just at the 50 foot area. after a few hours of training and to this day, this is where I look. As you say, everyone to their own methods and whatever works best. The CT also may present problems for new pilots trying to align the plane straight due to the tapered cowl. What appears to be straight down the runway might be scewed when a pilot tries to align with the runway by sighting down the tapered cowl. The dots on the windshield and other aids appear to help with this but another method is to put the centerline between one's legs. It is suggested that this results in a landing on the center line and straight. Since I seem to have made the needed adjustment mentally this technique has not been attempted. Landing properly and consistently is a work in progress and always presents challenges to me. This is what keeps flying interesting.

[Ed Cesnalis]

The far end of the runway doesn't tell me my position it tells me my trend. I can't see if I'm strait but I can see if I am continuiing to yaw because the far end is trending left or right.

 

The far end doesn't tell me my height above the runway but it does show changes in my pitch attitude if it is moving up or down rapidly and it tells me my sink rate if it is moving up slowly.

 

When my good friend finished his Europa build the mono gear gave him grief and we talked a lot about his progress. Kevin is an excellent pilot but landing on that single gear gave less directional stability than even a tail-dragger. Kevin found the clues that yawing was beginning by looking at the end of the runway, he saw the trend beginning and from that learned how to land on the mono-gear.

 

 

 

There are clues far down the runway that I don't have to dwell on.