Roger Lee Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Sometimes Gates calls the Fuel Injection MPI and sometimes it is called Barricade Fuel Injection so asking for Barricade instead of Fuel Injection is confusing. The lines have at least 4 layers and appear to have 5. The mesh layer inside the cover layer is the layer that makes it hard to fit the line over nipples but it does not appear to be the source of the black rubber debris. The innermost layer comes in contact with the fuel, Is this layer the source of the debris? The mesh provides the resistance while the inner layer is in contact with the nipple and realizes the mechanical damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Jeremy split the damaged hose and the damage is mechanical not degradation. He described 2 conditions, 1 where the barb is "aggressive" and sliding hose over it is likely to cause damage. Another condition where fit is loose and clamping tightly causes damage from the barb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 For those who will be buying hose, here's the NAPA link which shows the 4 different fuel hoses available. IT appears that it should be easy to get the 50psi carbureted version of barricade. http://www.napabeltshose.com/images/Barricade_Training_Final.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Hi ED, I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. It's always better to investigate before going off with too many suppositions and getting to many watches wound too tight in the community. If it had been degradation then there could have been more implications and backlash for many people, but now it can be a good teaching tool for everyone. Hopefully CPS will see what what mechanical damage can be with this hose on some fittings, but from the looks of the picture the hose was over tightened. You need very little clamp pressure on a barbed fitting. I saved your images to show others. Did you take my suggestion and add that filter and fly it back to Jeremy? A big thanks for following this through. Good job. Tell Jeremy thanks for me too please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 ED, p.s. I will send these to Kevin and ask him again not to use the fuel injection hose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 ED, p.s. I will send these to Kevin and ask him again not to use the fuel injection hose. The damage is from the barbs and Gates recommends that beaded fittings be used with rubber hose not barbed fittings. This would mean the fix is to change the fitting type if rubber line is to be used. 50psi line doesn't eliminate the mis-match it does make it less of an issue. The line remains a very poor choice because the barbs will easily cut it. http://www.gates.com...ocation_id=5348 Frequently Asked Questions Q: What are the recommended clamps for fuel hose line? A: J2044 is the SAE Quick Connect Coupling Specification for Liquid Fuel and Vapor/Emissions Systems. Any quick connect, worm gear or spring-loaded mechanical couplings used with Barricade should meet this spec. Beaded stems are recommended for rubber hose. Barbed stems are for use with plastic tubing only, due to the sharp ferrules and serrated teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 The damage is still from over crimping. The fuel line is used all over the world with barbed fittings, just don't crush it to death. Would the other fittings be better like on the fuel pump , sure, but even the Rotax factory fittings on some of their own hose is barbed. They use ferrules on that hose, but the key is they use the right one and only crimp it so far. Enough to hold and seal it, but not cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 This fuel hose is only for carbureted applications with hose barb-style fittings (it actually exceeds SAE30R6 specifications for carbureted applications). Made in the USA Here is some confirmation, you have to read between the lines. Jegs is suggesting that for barb fittings you need carbureted hose. Real world results would confirm this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Hi Ed, Kevin and I are talking through email. I have sent him pictures and a few suggestions. All we can do is be better informed for our selves and do our best. Which I know sometimes doesn't seem like enough, but it's all we have. As owners it's as important for us to be as informed as it is for the mechanic and many times we have to inform the mechanic so he doesn't repeat history. All we can ask of our mechanics if a problem arises is to be there for us and fix any issues he/she may have caused which may have been totally accidental or hard to control from the beginning This is why it's nice to have our forum and for others to post their research, mistakes and successes to help all of us. We have a great group here and a very proactive and knowledgeable group. I'm a big believer in United we stand and divided we fall. We have a united group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 ...I'm a big believer in United we stand and divided we fall. We have a united group. Lets all join hands and sing a chorus of 'kum ba yah'. I can't follow what you are saying Roger, it sounds as though you want me to give CPS a pass and if I blame anyone it should be the mechanic. I wonder why Tony's CT didn't have this problem, I think I know. Its not because the same mechanic knew how to tighten fuel hose on barbs earlier this year and then forgot how on my plane. The reason is probably because the same tension cuts more rubber on the high pressure hose. Its how high pressure hose works, it realizes less distortion so the force applied by the clamp will not be reduced as much via hose distortion and the rubber is applied to the barb with more force and therefore cuts more. Do you really want to call this resolved a 2nd time without coming to a resolution? Every CT needs this change every 5 years Power loss on departure will eventually result in a fatality Gates position: Beaded stems are recommended for rubber hose. Barbed stems are for use with plastic tubing only, due to the sharp ferrules and serrated teeth. When you collectively looked at this issue earlier this year you looked at the wrong thing. You all examined the hose but the hose was never at fault so you couldn't find the problem looking at the hose. As a result Kevin puts the kit back on the market with your name on it, flight design provides a resolution letter but in fact the problem wasn't even figured out. Gates position agrees with common sense. Plastic tubing can seal and fasten via a sharp cutting edge and rubber cannot. Even now Gates Fuel Injection hose is advertised in a kit designed by Roger Lee for the CT but will work for other aircraft as well. Hope no-one gets sucked in today! Its time to stop with the excuses and stop recommending this hose. Its time to put together a resolution that actually resolves the issue. The resolution needs to acknowledge and address that barbed stems and rubber hose are problematic. The manufacture at issue here recommends beaded fittings ( so does common sense ) and if that cannot be done easily then at least future installations should be beaded. Hose changes will continue without the owner reading all of your posts first Roger so the fact that info exists on this site is not a sufficient resolution. Your advice here is contradicted with what is on cps-parts.com so an owner/mechanic like me and Art can follow your advice and end up screwed. I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. This is no joke, now I wish you would have been in the plane when I lost power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hi ED, I have already had my total engine failure and it wasn't fixable and I wasn't at my home field. I have called CPS and they are working on removing my name as they are revamping some advertising. As far as us controlling what CPS sends out, we have no power other than to send them emails and calling to advise them of the problem. Bottom line we can't control CPS, but we can stay informed here and help each other. We can't save the world of light sport and can only hope to do what's right our selves and help our fellow forum member. This is why it is so important for all of us to read here and advise our mechanics or make them read the forum maint. topics before they do something they may know nothing about. All though they will tell you it worked on a Continental. :wacko: If someone here gets good info to pass along then that's all we can really hope for. There are too many variables here just on hose alone to control, not to mention other areas we need to work on. When we do work on our plane it is just like a flight plan. It is up to the owner/mechanic to know all there is to know about the flight or work. That takes some research before each job. Experience will eventually replace the high learning curve, but until you get enough years experience behind you it is planning time. I'm in for the "kum ba yah" sing in. We can do it on live chat tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Thinking of things one might try for 5 year hose replacement. How about taking the barbed fittings profile down a small amount by filing evenly around the fittings. This would reduce the diameter for easier hose installation and would prevent scarfing the inside of the hose. I've done this on engines where I had a hard time removing old carb hose and it has worked well. I would not think that there is a danger for hose pull-off due to sufficient clamp retention over the reduced barbs. Not trying to be a shade tree mechanic but there isn't any indication that this situation has any remedies being provided and this would provide one without going thru fitting replacement. It appears that the Gates Barricade is a robust and mogas resistant hose. What is needed is to make the fitting surfaces less agressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Hi Dick, I believe it is like many other things on our planes. When done right it isn't going to be an issue. Just like some think the Rotax oil filter will vibrate loose and secure it with a hose clamp and safety wire. When put on right it will not come off without a wrench. Or the front tire stems getting ripped out and having a flat. When the air pressure is kept up that won't happen. There are many many items like this on our plane and engine. Some are just easier to get right. If we install the correct type of hose, use proper clamps, use proper clamp pressure and clean installation practices none of this should happen. It was done this way from both the Rotax and FD factory and they didn't have any issues. The only thing that changes in the field is improper hose and installation practices. It's like most things, some times there is an education and learning curve and the info needs to be distributed so people are in the know. If you were going to go through all that trouble reducing the barb's edge then it would take less time to just swap the fitting. Then you will still have some fittings (the banjo bolts) that will still have barbed edges. Because some have done an improper install doesn't make the procedure wrong, it has just been a learning curve. It happened to me too and I tried to be as informative as I could be so people would not follow in those foot tracks. I would suggest that any CT owner with a new mechanic or one not familiar with a specific procedure to come visit us here. There are many bright people in all areas of our forum and I learn from these folks all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airhound Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Hey I missed the chat....and the sing a long... Great forensics though....I work on my 912 powered ELSA, got a Repairman's Cert....'a license to learn'...A take away for me is Technique and Procedure based experience is what separates Novice/substandard results from Professional outcomes. I think this kind of situation calls for a little more finese when working with fittings and hoses to avoid overtightening. But how do you learn how much is enough in this case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Squeeze until it screams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Roger, I talked to a tech at Jegs this morning and asked about the meaning of this language: "This fuel hose is only for carbureted applications with hose barb-style fittings (it actually exceeds SAE30R6 specifications for carbureted applications). Made in the USA" The tech confirmed that rubber line and barbs are not compatible but that the softer carburetion line is less problematic than the more rigid fuel injection. Rubber hose may be used on barbed fittings all over the world but that doesn't make it a good idea especially on aircraft. One reason I have trouble believing my problem is that my mechanic over-crimped all my barbed fittings is because he got a good result on Tony's CT. Yesterday I learned that Tony bought a 5 year rubber kit that did not include fuel line so Art found the original line at Napa, and that line was Gates fuel injected. I want to test the failed line on some barbs and see if it cuts more easily than other line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 CT, I was supposed to get fuel line from CPS but they were out of stock. I purchased the Gates injected fuel line from the local speed shop. I have had no concerns since the rubber change was done August, 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hi Ed, Whether someone has an issue with fuel injected from one plane to another is how it was installed. It can work, but a little due diligence is required. We know it does work because hundreds of aircraft have used it without issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 I got my CT home from South Lake Tahoe today. Ran great for the 1st 45 minutes. I started descending about 10 miles out and my 2nd throttle reduction was from 5,300 to 5,100 then the RPM dropped to 4,300. I went back to WOT and tried again closer in and got strange responses to most throttle changes, sometimes a drop followed by a climb. hmmmmmmm I checked the original hose in my hangar and my CT had Wurth fuel line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Hi Ed, Check the carb bowls again. It is possible that some debris got into the carbs and in a passage way. In that case they need to come off and apart to be flushed and blown out (about 1.5 hrs). That might have been a good thing to do while it was down and you found all the debris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 one of the vent lines off the carb has come unattached. This would cause one carb to get more float bowl pressure on a decent due to ram air and possibly cause the roughness as a result of a differential mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Ed, good find. This should be the cause for roughness - my vent line moved out of the airbox and exposed one of the three holes that are in my vent line and which normally reside inside the airbox. I had a rough running engine until I found the problem and correctly positioned the vent hose so all holes where back inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 26, 2012 Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Hi Ed, It will definitely make the engine run rough. Even if this tube is connected, so long as one of the holes in the white tubing that runs through the airbox is outside the airbox it will run rough. It does change the pressure within the carb and causes them to basically become un-synced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2012 Roger, Since the symptom only showed on descent and you know I fly high RPM, it was hard to sense any roughness. It seemed more like un-commanded throttle responses. Glad it wasn't more contamination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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