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coppercity

Great 2007 CTSW available

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This little gem has about 465hrs TTSN, equipped with dual Dynon 100/120 setup, Garmin Sl40, GTX327, GDL39 ADS-B and Aera 560 with xm. Black leather seats.

 

Asking 75k but will consider offers. Aircraft is currently located at FDUSA.

 

 

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FWIW, if there's someone thinking of building a kit plane, better think twice about spending as much (or more) for the kitplane as what this low hour CTSW with glass panel would cost.

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Dick,

 

For many builders, saving money is not the primary driver. They like to build and they do it more than once. In the world of RV's these people are called repeat offenders. In many cases they would rather be building than flying.

 

For myself, I'd rather be flying. So, why am I building? Good question. By the time I am done I will have about 70K in a fully optioned plane including paint. Also about 1200 hours whereas an experienced builder can do an RV-12 in 800. Several RV-12 builders I know who have built to sell were lucky to get 75K.

 

In my case I am retired so this is a good project. The airpark I live in is full of RV builders. There is also a very active EAA chapter here on the airport of which I was president for 2 years. You could say that aircraft building is ingrained in the local culture.

 

Would I do it again? Probably not. When will it fly? On Tuesday - I just don't know which Tuesday.

 

On thing is certain. I will never again ask a builder what is taking them so long!!

 

Another reason to build. In the case of E-AB you can do your own inspections if you are the builder. In the case of RV-12's, which is ELSA, you don't need to be the builder, just the 16 hour course as a minimum. In the case of SLSA like the CT, you need the 120 hour course as a minimum. For E-AB and ELSA anyone, including a trunk monkey, can do any and all work-just can't sign off inspections without meeting the above criteria. In the case of E-AB the owner can make modifications. Same with ELSA, after airworthiness certificate is issued, so long as LSA criteria is not violated. Not so with SLSA where a note from mother is required.

 

So, it's not just a money issue. However, you've got to be ready to make a big commitment. And, it helps to have a flyable plane at your disposal.

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My understanding is that the 16 hour course allows you to do inspections on your own SLSA, but no repairs, and again, only on your own airplane. That is why I took the 120 hrs.

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The 16 Hr. course is only for ELSA's Annual's and not SLSA's and you have to own the ELSA. Anyone can do maint. on an experimental between annuals.

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Hi John. I understand what you are saying about building and didn't mean to "slight" those who choose to build rather than buy a ready to fly aircraft. I've spent thousands of hours restoring old cars and wish that I would have been involved with aircraft instead of the cars while I was still young. Those countless hours tinkering in the garage on cars has sapped me of the fortitude needed to build an airplane and thus my comments on buying compared to building. My local area is very active regarding building planes. I belong to the Ann Arbor EAA (KARB) and the EAA chapter at Metettal airport (1D2) has turned out many experimentals over the years and it seems like the Sonex has caught the interest of many builders in these parts. Of course, the RV's are plentiful too. My neighbor at Willow run airport built and is flying a Rutan Quickie which he built at Metettal. Neat to see that plane fly. The EAA chapter at Jackson (KJXN) has been very active for many years and has one of their restored aircraft at the EAA museum at Oshkosh. Then too, if I really get bored, the Yankee Airforce is always looking for volunteers to help with their B17, B25 and C47 here at my home base of the Willow Run airport. By the way, talking about the time it takes to build a plane, the bomber plant built over 8,000 B24's and the build rate for these was one per hour or 650 per month during WWII.

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I've flown Citations and King Airs and even C401's into Willow Run a number of times 5-8 years ago when I was flying charter, usually on medical or organ flights. Interesting history but not much of an FBO, as I remember.

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Dick,

 

I didn't take it as a slight. I think I was just feeling talkative!! :D Your point was exactly right. Think twice, or more, before deciding to build.

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Dick as we all age, we do not worry about telling about it, so showing mine. I too have been into Willow Run many times flying 1049 connie and DC3's hauling auto parts. As for Jackson, its nice having Aeroquip down the street.

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Jim, I'm in the Black Eagle hangars on the Northeast side. There is the AvFlight FBO here where the medical and charter jets come and maybe you're referring to this area. Willow Run has 24/7 fire fighters with foam trucks in mid-field and a tower that remains 24/7 operational. Kalitta air cargo has it's operations here and I understand they have over 30 747's operating worldwide. Connie Kalitta does a lot for our service personnel overseas, often shipping planeloads of "care packages" to the troops on his own dime. Jack Roush has his hangar here and he's apparently back flying after his Oshkosh accident (with one eye), giving rides in his P-51 Mustang. Yankee Airforce often taxies by my hangar, providing rides in the B-25 and B-17. Love those radial engines! The B-24 assembly lines are still there. These are identical side by side lines that are one mile long inside the old plant.

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. . . "why build your own plane?" . . .

Because . . . it has been said, "Flying a machine, that has been built with my own hands, is one of the most satisfying endeavors I have ever achieved."

 

I'd say, that is a pretty good reason.

 

Over 7,000 happy RV owners will attest to that.

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That post just did two things...

 

1) Crossed the line into troll territory, and,

 

2) Earned a spot on my very, very short ignore list for this site (hint: its at less than two now).

 

Congratulations, gbigs! Well played, sir!!!

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Then why not do your own heart surgery, or make your own shoes, or refine your own gasoline? Need it bigger? How about build your own house from foundation to shingles (yourself - no help). Or how about fix your own teeth. Maybe deliver your own kids or be your own doctor when you get cancer? All these things carry less risk than building an aircraft you trust your life to.

 

If everybody had followed your ideal then we wouldn't have to worry about going out and flying airplanes because there would be no such thing as an airplanes to fly. All of these airplanes are built by someone and the fact that the pilot was the builder adds no increased risk in my mind. Do you think an airplane that is built by hand carries more risk than other aircraft?

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Not true. Professionaly factory built airplanes are not built by amateurs. They are built using jigs, quality control, with management checking the work. Home built anything is pretty much up to one guy with no oversight, and certainly not with any quality control. Plus, the factory built comes with a warranty. And the factory built is test flown by professionals before being handed to the customers. In short, the factory built goes thru the ringer long before the customer sees it. The home built is a crap shoot.

 

That's quite impressive.

All of that withstanding . . . so what's up with the Boeing - 787 Dreamliner?

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Not true. Professionaly factory built airplanes are not built by amateurs. They are built using jigs, quality control, with management checking the work. Home built anything is pretty much up to one guy with no oversight, and certainly not with any quality control. Plus, the factory built comes with a warranty. And the factory built is test flown by professionals before being handed to the customers. In short, the factory built goes thru the ringer long before the customer sees it. The home built is a crap shoot.

 

 

You are making a statement that is not accurate.

 

First do you think the guy shooting rivets into the spar on the c-130 line is a professional? What makes him better than the guy in the garage? Tools? Attitude? Shiny badge that says Lockheed? C'mon. It's his attitude that makes him a professional. Same like the guy in the garage. Plain and simple. Because my friend it ain't the training! The training the guys get at the tin shack at Oshkosh rivals any training those guys on the line get. Have you ever bucked a rivet? TIG WELDED a joint? Sewn fabric? Do you understand how to lay up glass so it is directionally stiff? Have you ever made a composite mold? Some guys I know who have built and restored aircraft have all these skills. Would you call them professional?

 

Having owned and sold a company that is a supplier to Lockheed Martin and building parts in both metal and composite for C-130, F-22, C-5 and the P-3 along with spending hundreds of hours on all the lines except F-22 I can tell you that the accuracy of the jigs for the c-130, c-5 are probably worse that those jigs I have seen made by friends who have built rv's.

 

I will not talk about quality control other than to say that most suppliers are self certifying quality. Quality is no longer checked on parts coming in. Parts that are made onsite are checked in such a way that most wouldn't believe it and I'm not gonna describe it. I will say that the 90 percent of the drawings used today for the C-130 are barely readable.

 

Management checking parts? For real?

 

 

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gbigs, while is true that our are airplanes are built by professionals what makes them professionals is the fact that they are being paid. The truth is our airplanes are built by hand,and no two are exactly alike. The wings from one will not fit on another. A homebuilt is often built by a craftsman someone who takes pride in their work. They do use jigs, most have some kind of quality control like another builder checking their work. Some homebuilts are professionaly test flown, and most go through a 40 hour flight test program. Our airplane show up in the states with about 2 hours of flight time.

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gbigs, I would assume by your comments that you have seldom, if ever, built or repaired anything in your life.

I was blessed to have built a garage (stick built) with my father, I have kit built and scratch built amateur radio equipment, I am currently building an 89" wingspan radio controlled biplane with a 120cc engine, I have built computers (assembling and originally built from parts), rebuilt an engine on a Triumph Spitfire, and...with my LSRM-A I now work on my own plane and do my own annuals. (That's the short list.)

Why would anyone want to do any of those things? Because there is a satisfaction that comes with knowing a thing thouroughly inside and out, and in knowing that you have accomplished a goal that the majority of people wouldn't even attempt.

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There is a saying, "if you want to fly an airplane then buy one. If you want to build an airplane then build one". Seems that there are plenty of folks in both camps. The good news is that each pilot gets to chose which way of acquiring an airplane is best for him or her.

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