When to pull the 'chute

[Doug G.]

What do you think about the Cirrus video suggestion of power loss on take-off? 0-500' - land straight ahead, 500-2000' - pull immediatly, above 2000' consider it as an option.

[FastEddieB]

I think it's reasonable.

 

Lots of pilots have been killed after losing power in that intermediate 500'-2,000' range - speed bleeds off quickly and there's a powerful urge to attempt a return to the airport.

 

An engine loss in that phase is so life-threatening, I would never fault a pilot who pulled immediately. Sure, a skilled pilot might have a successful outcome without it, but the chute option is at or near 100% survivable. Hard to argue with stats like that.

 

I no longer have the chute option, and I do miss it.

[mocfly]

 

If the airplane enters an inadvertent spin, push

the rudder opposite the spin direction. Position the control stick in neutral position for

recovery. After the spin rotation stops, recover to level flight carefully to not exceed Vne,

or the load limits of the aircraft.

 

http://documents.flightdesignusa.com/flight_training_supplement.pdf

 

I teach spin recovery as:

1. Power off

2. Aireleron neutral( center the stick in the CT)

3. Rudder to the stop opposite of spin

4. Apply quick forward elevator. You have to break the stall.

5. Hold the rudder input until rotation stops.

6. Begin slow elevator back to regain alt.

 

Great examples here

 

Amazing how fast things happen!

 

 

[NC Bill]

About 3 years ago in Colorado a CIRRUS hit a tow line connecting a glider and it's tow plane. The CIRRUS caught fire but it's assumed the pilot deployed the 'chute. An amateur photographer captured some of the resulting decent http://www.9news.com...32284&catid=339

 

CAUTION: it is disturbing. But it clearly answers the question for me. NEVER PULL THE 'CHUTE IN A FIRE.

[Roger Lee]

Boy if you have a non controllable aircraft falling out of the sky and on fire you're up the creek. If it's flyable get to the ground. Time is either the killer or savior. The old movie scenario of dive and blow the flames out is just that, Hollywood. If that worked jets flying at 300-750 knots would never have to worry. Fan the flames as they say. Besides most of the time it's in the protected engine compartment trying to get inside the protected cockpit.

A fast spreading fire that may be fuel fed would be terrifying in air with any scenario. Even if you shut the fuel off there is still enough in the engine compartment to really get things going. Be thankful that FD is a company that puts fire sleeve on its fuel and oil hose because several LSA companies do not.

 

Kevlar is used because of its strength, but it will burn or melt. Our BRS bridals are Kevlar. I think you mean Nomex. We used Nomex hoods in the fire service to protect our heads and necks. That's what fire suits are made of for racing. I just wore one about 3 weeks ago while driving some laps in a Nascar.

[Doug G.]

The stuff I am finding online today for fire pants for firefighting is 60% Kevlar, 40% Nomex. In the Cirrus accident above the harness held. Anyone sure if the fire started before or after the chute was pulled?

[TheRaven]

I'm glad to see this topic discussed. As a student pilot, I have to say that I've always been comforted by the fact that the CTLS has a parachute. Perhaps it's a false sense of security. Clearly the BRS will not save everyone under all circumstances. It's good to think about it ahead of time, when one would pull, and under what circumstances.

[FastEddieB]

Anyone sure if the fire started before or after the chute was pulled?

 

Don't know.

 

But I believe the speculation was that the impact either killed the pilot outright or rendered him unconscious, and that the chute may have deployed from the impact.

[Howardnmn]

Has anyone actually pulled the chute in a CT? Has a CT chute ever failed to deploy?

 

I would pull if bad bird stike or collision or engine-out over bad terrain but always wondered what is probability of total- or partial failure to deploy? Does FD or BRS give any statistics?

 

Has anyone had an in-flite fire?

[FastEddieB]

From the video, I don't think anyone has ever died in a Cirrus when a chute was pulled within design parameters.

 

There was one failure to deploy early on - I think a handle bracket bent enough that the cable could not be pulled hard enough. Miraculously, the pilots survived the impact (in Australia? Cushioned by trees? I forget the details.)

 

In any case, an AD was issued for a handle bracket redesign and there's been no "failure to launch" since.

 

No mechanical system is perfect, but in general a BRS chute not functioning is pretty far down the list of things a pilot needs to worry about.

[Jim Meade]

Check BRS for partial list of deployments. At least two CT listed, one in Sweden and one in Morocco. Not much for details. I think there was a third in Denmark or Northern Germany with some pictures on the net.

[Runtoeat]

I recall a couple of accidents which occured here in Michigan a few years ago when the subject of pulling the chute comes up. One accident involved a Tecnam. The pilot appeared to experience engine problems just after takeoff. Observers indicate that It appeared he still could come back to the runway but he instead choose to land in a soybean field next to the runway and made what appeared to be a good landing. The landing gear was snagged by the soybeans, were ripped upward and travelled thru the floor of the plane and punctured his lungs. He died during transport to the hospital. A second accident occured with a CTLS in Ohio. I saw this plane after the accident and talked to the FBO where it was being held pending investigation. The pilot had engine failure at around 6000' altitude. He picked an open field and landed. All was going good until he ran into a ravine that he didn't see before landing. The plane's landing gear and engine were ripped off, wings were crumpled, tail snapped off and the windshield popped out. The plane flipped onto it's back and the pilot and his passenger got out thru the windshield opening. It doesnt take much to upset light planes like our CT's during landing. Extra high grass (soybean!), muddy terrain, furrows, rocks, critter burrows, power lines, fenches. Most of these hazzards cannot be seen until after the fact. I am no longer thinking that an emergency landing is just a simple matter of doing a full stall setdown in a field due to the input received from the two accidents mentioned. My personal plan is to look for a road or or highway. If none is present, I'll pull the red handle.

[Jim Meade]

The landing gear was snagged by the soybeans, were ripped upward and travelled thru the floor of the plane and punctured his lungs.

I can't visualize this. If the plane is landing into soybeans, it is going 40 kias or better or else it is a stall. If he is going 40 kiwa or better and the beans are mature, they will grab the landing gear and likely put him on his back. If the beans are very short, it would be like landing in thick grass, and if it didn't flip him would slow him dramatically. In either case, the gear is being forced reward. I don't see the gear comimg up through the floorboard in either scenario. Unless he full stalled the plane in from some height and essentially fell straight down. I'd have to look at the Tecnam, but thought the gear was behind the pilot.

How can a guy circle down from 6,000 feet and not see a ravine? Did he not circle?

I think most of this off-field landing business is about energy dissipation and avoiding, if possible, conditions in which fire or heavy force is going to occur.

In my opinion, this tendency to say, I'll do this or that" is not the best option. We should all know enough about the characteristics of various landing spots and our airplane to make an informed decision, very quickly if necessary, and choose the best option. Only at very low altitudes or if there is no time does the "ambush drill" come into play.

 

[Doug G.]

Jim, not trying to start an arguement here, but I don't know anything about landing in the SW. On the other hand, has anyone in the group tried landing in a field with 3 feet of snow drifted to 6' in places, or a plowed field with mud and standing water? I don't know how I could possibly know "enough about the characteristics of various landing spots" especially if I am travelling cross country to some place I have never been.

 

It seems to me, in general, that pulling the chute means you will survive, but a forced landing, without knowing exactly what the conditions are of the road (signs, poles, wires, mailboxes, etc.), or field you are going to land on is riskier. The last thing you want to do is wish you would have pulled it sooner. Yes, the plane will be damaged, but probably less than if it goes on its back, for whatever reason.

 

Do the planes that use the chute end up totalled? I know a set of wings costs about $16k and if you seriously damage one you have to buy two I am told. Landing gear would probably be damaged unless you find the right road or field. Trees may save your life, but plane will be totalled. I'm thinking a vertical decent of 17kts. sounds better than a horizontal landing in a place I don't know at about 40 kts.

[FastEddieB]

Many pilots have glided to fields that looked good from the air, only to find them not so great when it was too late to change the course of action.

 

This video has made the rounds, but some may not have seen it - you can fast forward to about the 6:00 point for the good part.

 

 

Yes, it worked out well, but note the stone walls that he barely missed.

 

Oh, and the cost of wings and the like should be the LAST thing on your mind in an emergency - that's what insurance is for

[TheRaven]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, although I couldn't find it in a search, but does anyone know how much pressure is required to actually pull the chute? Could anyone do it? Man, woman, child? Just curious. Obviously this is not something that one can practice, but it would be good to know what to expect in the unfortunate event that a BRS deployment was necessary.

[Doug G.]

I've been told it is about a 40 lb. pull.

[TheRaven]

I've been told it is about a 40 lb. pull.

 

Thanks. That makes me feel more confident that I could do it if I had to.

[Runtoeat]

Eddie, great reality video. This guy had a lot of time and a little power for a while which appeared to help maintain his altitude but it still made my stomach get tied in knots. I fly mostly 1500' to 2000' AGL. After wasting the first precious seconds going thru the "oh shit", there will be no time to look for a spot to land. I've learned in my 500 hours that I don't have all the skills I thought I had at 200 hours. I'll stick with my plan to use my BRS if there's no roads nearby.

[Roger Lee]

The chute pull poundage is indeed around 30 lbs. it could be as low as 25, but is usually closer to 35 and could be up to 40. Things that dictate this pull is type of system and or cable routing and length. With adrenaline flowing you won't have any issues. There won't be an accidental pull. The first 1.5" - 2" is just free cable. There are "O" rings that hold the handle in place. After that it is pulling on the firing pin.

Good luck and have a safe float down. It has to be an E ticket ride.

[FastEddieB]

For comparison, from the Cirrus POH:

 

 

1. 
   Activation Handle (Both Hands) .............PULL STRAIGHT DOWN
   Pull the activation T-handle from its holder. Clasp both hands around the handle and pull straight down in a strong, steady, and continuous motion. Maintain maximum pull force until the rocket activates. Pull forces up to, or exceeding, 45 pounds may be required. Bending of the handle-housing mount is to be expected.
   • WARNING •
   Jerking or rapidly pulling the activation T-handle will greatly increase the pull forces required to activate the rocket. Use a firm and steady pulling motion – a “chin-up” type pull enhances successful activation.
   

[FastEddieB]

The Cirrus may not be a good way to figure out the effort on the CTLS for the BRS.

 

That's why I said " For comparison".

[mocfly]

I tried the brs simulator at Oshkosh and it seemed more than 25 but less than 30. I can also tell you that the o'rings that hold our handle in the retainer are pretty tight and contribute to that number. During our chute repack I pulled the handle to see how much force it took. Again more than expected.

 

 

[Tom Baker]

back in 2008 or 2009 at Sebring dealer meetings they had a CT seat mounted to a piece of plywood and a BRS handle mounted in the same location as in the CT. Myself along the other got to sit in the seat and pull the handle. Like Roger said there are two forces to overcome. The first is pulling the handle out of the socket. Several in the group thought that would have fired the rocket, but that was not the case. It took a second pull or one really good tug to trigger the firing pin. It did take a pretty strong pul get it fired.

[johngpilot]

The BRS handle is not pulled like a lawnmower. More like pulling a weight., Not a quick motion but a firm hard Long pull. According to BRS engineering you can't pull it too hard.

 

I heard Allen Klapmeier at a Cirrus Owners Seminar when asked " How many people would have died if they didn't pull the chute? He answered " All of them" the BRS in the CT uses the exact same technology but sized for the CT weights.

 

The error is pulling too late or not at all.

 

In general the people I interviewed after they pulled the chute were all convinced it was the best thing to do. NOT one was injured in any way.

Probably need about 250 - 300 feet for full deployment and If the wind is strong once on the ground you might find yourself dragged along the ground so this is also a consideration.

 

The CT deployment in Germany used a 1050 BRS not the 1350HS. If I remember right, This was a flight test that was outside the flight envelope and well over the design speeds of both the chute and the CT.