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Roger Lee

CTLS price increases

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Breaking News

 

The big news is that effective immediately, Flight Design has increased the price of the CTLS base models. Option pricing has remained the same as last year but the planes are now priced as follows. The web site will be updated over the weekend.

 

CTLSi - $143,800.00 WAS $139,800

 

CTLS Advanced -$156,500.00 WAS $152,000

 

CTLS Club - $136,860.00 WAS $133,900

 

We had a good show at Sun n Fun where we just closed another sale this week. Attendance overall was down but we had several new dealers in attendance. Peak Aviation is staffing up the sales team and is adding a CTLSi to the Flight School. They are waiting the delivery of the plane from Airtime. Tom Gutmann brought the CTLS on floats which was a big draw. Press conferences were done a Sun n Fun and Aero;

We covered progress towards achieving our Production Organization Approval, an involved and rigorous process that involves both the German and EASA authorities, new features for our aircraft for 2013 as well as an update on the C4 development schedule. </p></p>

 

Delivery times are still longer that we would like for new aircraft. Orders are arriving in the US now. Continued deposits for new orders will help planning and ultimately speed up the delivery cycle. Plan on at least 6 months from Deposit to Shipment and make sure to communicate. Please make a note of the price increase and plane accordingly.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

John Gilmore

National Sales Manager

Flight Design USA

612-759-2252

www.flightdesignusa.com

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Hi Guys,

 

looks like CTSW and older CTLS used prices should go up too. I would recommend not to price your used CT's low and start keeping up our used market prices. If we all do that then the used market is what we want it to be reasonable and fair.

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Many years ago, I (as a 12 year old) was trying to sell my first horse. A friend of the family asked me what it was worth. I blurted out a number, revised it, and asked him what he thought?

 

He replied; "Davey, your horse is worth exactly what someone else will pay for it, not a dollar more, and not a dollar less".

 

I never forgot that lesson.

 

Used CTSWs and CTLS's are worth what the market will pay for them........... not what you want for them.

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I have always liked that saying too and usually believe it,

 

But if none are lower than a certain price then that's the market value. People will buy no matter what the market price is so long as it is reasonable. Pricing too low from some domes the rest.

 

Let's keep our re-sale market price up.

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Your right the Used CT market isn't directly connected to the new ones, but when prices climb more people turn towards used because they get priced out of the new ones.

Like me, I couldn't afford a new one at today's prices no matter how bad I wanted it so that would force me closer to the used maker. If every CT owner that was going to sell never went below a certain price that would set the used market value. The used market value right now is too arbitrary and could easily be bumped up a few thousand. If I couldn't afford a $165K CT I would be tickled pink to get one for used one for half the price. Instead of selling your used 2006 CTSW for $70K sell it for $75-$78. The CT quality is well worth the money and both buyer and seller make out well. If no one went below the $75k that would be the market value. If people sell them in the $60K range then everyone expects that. The 360+ CT owners in the US could absolutely control used pricing. There are only so many and that would be available at any one time so buyers would have to buy or walk. If they want a CT the extra $5K is nothing.

 

Same thing on the new end. If a person absolutely wants the top of the line CT he'll pay the price.

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Price them any way you want. The market dictates what gets purchased and what sits in the hangar. With the lead times like this, a new plane is worth more than its sticker price upon arrival because many will pay a premium to not wait. That dynamic may work in the used market, but remember, the older planes are older. And they do not have the latest avionics or engines.

 

Roger may have great stuff because he is a mechanic. But ordinary owners have no advantage except to price low when used. There is no premium in the used market when newer models go up in price. The two are not connected. The used market may go up though if demand is high and the people dont want to wait.

 

You are correct that Roger has great stuff. But that's Roger. I remember an old saying about the cobblers children go barefoot. So, just because you buy from a mechanic doesn't mean his plane, car, boat, etc will be well maintained. Assume nothing.

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I agree that Roger might not fully get the full impact of a free market on prices.

 

But I have two anecdotes about new prices and availability impacting used prices.

 

1) I bought my Tiger for $32,000 in 1992. That was about what they were going for then. With new ones either not available or priced in the stratosphere, I sold it in 2003 for $62,000 (to buy my Cirrus). I had sunk about $20k in a panel upgrade, but it still shows what can happen to used prices given the right circumstances.

 

2) I bought my Sky Arrow new in 2007 for $75,500. A fellow called me recently and said he was looking to buy a used one of similar vintage and hours for about that price. Seemed high to me, but he opined that I had gotten an artificially low price as 3i struggled to sell planes, and that new ones (with only minor improvements) were about $100k. That fact, along with the tiny number of Sky Arrows in the field and even tinier number on the market, was driving prices higher.

 

All the above is great for sellers, not so much for buyers. But free markets will ultimately determine sale prices. As CT2kFlyer pointed out, something is worth only what someone is willing to give you for it at any given time - not what you think it is. I have a third anecdote along those lines, but my finger is tired!

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My point was really "All for one and One for All".

Each one of us can help the other and the CT group in the US can help the individual by watching how we price our used CT's. I agree it is a free market, but with a limited number of CT's on the market at any one time those people can control the used sale price. If for example no one went below $75K ever then that would be the market price and buyers would pay that because that was the only price. Of course there are some CT's better equipped than others, lower hours and in better shape. That's is the wiggle room in the pricing, but low balling yourself as a seller isn't good for you or the other CT sellers.

 

Here is a very simplistic example.

If FD has a specific part and prices it then you more or less become forced to buy that part from FD because you may not be able to get it any where else. You can grumble all you want, but that's the price if you want it.

If you want a new CTLSi then you will pay their price. The market doesn't dictate the new price, FD does. You may think the market controls the price, but FD won't sell planes if they can't make an acceptable profit margin.You then have the option to buy the new CT at their price or walk away. You may think FD's price to be high, but people are still buying them. Same thing here with used CT's. If we sell our used CT's only at a certain price levels with a little adjustment for the items listed above then that becomes the price and buyers then would pay that price because that becomes the norm or walk away. Same as any thing we buy in life.

 

Same thing for that horse listed in a previous post. If the buyer thinks any horse is only worth $50, but he can't find one less than $100 any where then he will decide if he really wants a horse at all. If he does then he will have to pay $100 to get one and that will be the norm and market price.

 

My whole point is don't shoot yourself in the foot if you don't have too.

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If for example no one went below $75K ever then that would be the market price and buyers would pay that because that was the only price

 

That will work.

 

Up to the point where one sits on the market for first a week, then a month, then after six months or a year the owner, really needing to sell starts dropping the price, right to the point where it does finally sell. For what would be the "real" market value.

 

 

My other anecdote occurred when I got out of the airplane rental business back in the 80's. I was trying to sell a Citabria 7ECA for $10,500 and a Grumman Traveller for $12,500. I got a call from a broker offering me $20k for both, cash, right now. I thought he was "bottom fishing" and I was a little insulted. They were worth more than that.

 

Or so I thought.

 

Over the next year I had to keep dropping my prices to get any interest at all. IIRC, the Citabria finally sold for $9,500 and the Grumman for $10,500. So the $20k from the broker was not that far off. Plus, I had the joy of paying an extra year or so of tiedown and insurance and maintenance. I would have been worlds ahead if I had just taken that broker's offer. Then again, I would have always felt a little ripped off, since I felt in my heart of hearts they were worth more.

 

Lesson learned!

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The big problem I have with the used market price is for one of the major price guides the person who put it together just picked a price that he thought the airplanes were worth. It was not based on any actual selling data. His price stayed the same even after some actual selling data was offered after his price was out there. I think his price is to low, and it is really hard to sell an airplane that is priced over book value for several reasons including financing.

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Hi Tom,

 

I'm not advocating any over priced selling, just don't under sell. I agree that an over priced unit just sits forever and doesn't move. That is also partly influenced by people selling too low. If buyers keep seeing low prices then they won't pay any thing higher. If they never see a low price then the average or higher prices become the norm. Published low prices give buyers an extremely powerful tool for negotiation on other CT's just because of comparison alone and it also makes the seller more willing whether he wants to or not to come down on his price. The too low seller keeps the average priced ones from selling because buyers know someone will come along. The numbers I posted on another thread show the average prices. There were a few higher, but there were those too low. There is always an upper and lower margin due to individual specific aircraft features. I only advocate don't go too low. It will add fuel to the fire for buyers and make some sellers low ball themselves more often than need be which in turn slowly hurts the rest when we want to sell ours.

 

 

Marketing 101.

Find and sell something no one else has. (A CT) Set the price and don't let anyone sell below a certain price. You may jump up and down and call it price fixing, but FD and others do it all the time with their dealers. Business people call this "Fair Market Value". More or less sell at this price or we won't let you be a dealer. It has been a business model for centuries. Businesses look for a profit margin, but individuals usually don't.

 

My question to you and your pocketbook would be. Why Not?

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Hi Tom,

 

I'm not advocating any over priced selling, just don't under sell. I agree that an over priced unit just sits forever and doesn't move. That is also partly influenced by people selling too low. If buyers keep seeing low prices then they won't pay any thing higher. If they never see a low price then the average or higher prices become the norm. Published low prices give buyers an extremely powerful tool for negotiation on other CT's just because of comparison alone and it also makes the seller more willing whether he wants to or not to come down on his price. The too low seller keeps the average priced ones from selling because buyers know someone will come along. The numbers I posted on another thread show the average prices. There were a few higher, but there were those too low. There is always an upper and lower margin due to individual specific aircraft features. I only advocate don't go too low. It will add fuel to the fire for buyers and make some sellers low ball themselves more often than need be which in turn slowly hurts the rest when we want to sell ours.

 

 

Marketing 101.

Find and sell something no one else has. (A CT) Set the price and don't let anyone sell below a certain price. You may jump up and down and call it price fixing, but FD and others do it all the time with their dealers. Business people call this "Fair Market Value". More or less sell at this price or we won't let you be a dealer. It has been a business model for centuries. Businesses look for a profit margin, but individuals usually don't.

 

My question to you and your pocketbook would be. Why Not?

 

Roger, I think you missed my point. One person set a low price in a price guide based only on what he felt the airplanes were worth not what they were actually selling for. Now buyers are relying on this artificial low price from a respected price guide when trying to buy a used airplane.

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Hi Ed,

 

Sure it works. That's why some get more for their plane than others. Remember the old saying. Buy low, sell high. Some are just better at it than others and some are better negotiators. Some are tough sellers and some are tough buyers.

So it's better to sell from a position of strength and not weakness.

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Roger makes a noble point . . . on trying to keep the price of used CT's as high as possible.

That is in the interest of everybody who has one. Purchasers are not immediately interested in that, for obvious reasons. After those buyers write the big fat check though, resale value becomes of great interest to them also. :)

 

If a seller finds oneself in a position where they are forced to liquidate their assets (including their beloved CT), probably the last thing they will be worried about is how the sale will affect the market price of the remaining fleet. Time constraints withstanding, they will settle for whatever they can get. As mentioned before, there are numerous tradeoffs which will affect the final price arrived at.

 

So . . . what price should a seller charge for his used CT?

 

Business schoolbook answer: "Whatever the market will bear."

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I think there's a much larger group of people who will pony up with $80K to get a CTSW or $90K to get the more refined used CTLS than the number of those chomping at the bit to plunk down $143K to get basically the same airplane in the latest CTLS. Old or new, the CTSW and CTLS are aircraft that do everything one wants them to do. If one wants to, avionics can be upgraded to bring the older CTLS up to par with the newest CTLS being sold for far less than the price differential. The $140K CTLS was priced higher than I could justify for this "sport" I'm in. Now they're up to $143K. Who needs the complexity, weight and cost of the injected Rotax when the current Rotax has an altitude compensation carburetion system that needs no attention to mixture adjustment and rarely, if ever, any attention to carb heat. All this while moving me thru the air at max+ LSA legal speed while sipping 5 gallons of $4 mogas/hr. and providing a "best-in-class" cockpit width and seat comfort. So I have to balance my carbs once in a while - so what? I havent touched the carbs for over 200 hours now because I'm still only seeing a 25 rpm drop on each CDI compared to "both" during the runup and the engine just purrs during flight. The rising price of the CTLSi is a rising tide that's lifting all the boats higher.

 

Footnote: My local FD distributor just sold three used CT's in the last 6 months and has more buyers on the line looking for used CT's. I think the "sticker shock" of the new ones are causing more interest in the used ones. :-)

 

 

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Here are the latest price lists we will have for Oshkosh.

 

Current deposit schedule for a new airplane is $33,000. New orders are currently running at about10-12 months out. Production ramp-up is dependent upon continued sales momentum. Please get deposits in to lock in the deliveries. The Distributors have very few airplanes not already spoken for and those are fully loaded CTLSi at $~165,000 price point. Any club configurations are a special order.

 

CTLSi airframe changes:

We have been able to add an additional gallon of fuel and a fuel selector valve ( R L )

Addition of Electric Trim

Cowling changes,

The 5000 ft cruise at 75% performance is 21% better. We are planning on keeping the extra Flight Design Warranty on the Rotax engine that extends the factory time and hours.

 

 

The Flight Design CTLSi is a modern, all-carbon-fiber Light-Sport Aircraft with a wide, comfortable cabin with unparalleled visibility; an 1000-NM range at 115 Kts using only 4 gph. A Full glass panel, Garmin radio stack and a BRS airframe parachute are all standard equipment. Flight Design LSAs are backed with a nationwide service network, next-day parts availability and an established company serving more than 1,800 airplanes worldwide. Surveyed owners express high customer satisfaction.

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In addition to the $33,000 you will then be asked to pay $50,000 just prior to shipping, balance will be due on delivery.

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Just finished Walter Isaacson's biography of Steve Jobs.

 

Steve could generate something that became known as a "reality distortion field".

 

Just sayin'.

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I'm just thankful to be a part of the very privileged portion of society that can drive over to the airport, jump in their own airplane and fly around. I'll be damned if I'm going to have a pissing contest about who has a better airplane. In any case, until CTLSi gets his license, *he* can't drive over to the airport and fly his plane any time he wants, regardless of how much better he thinks it is than mine.

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The 5000 ft cruise at 75% performance is 21% better. We are planning on keeping the extra Flight Design Warranty on the Rotax engine that extends the factory time and hours.

 

I don't have a power/altitude chart...what rpm does 75% power end up being at 5000ft? If it's 5200rpm at sea level, I'm guessing 5000rpm? 4800rpm? Or is it the same 5200rpm, just requiring more throttle? I guess it comes down to whether they mean 75% of *available* power, or *total* power...

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I don't have a power/altitude chart...what rpm does 75% power end up being at 5000ft? If it's 5200rpm at sea level, I'm guessing 5000rpm? 4800rpm? Or is it the same 5200rpm, just requiring more throttle? I guess it comes down to whether they mean 75% of *available* power, or *total* power...

 

RPM @ 75% power is dependent on prop pitch. It has a minimum in the range you are guessing, could be higher, can't be much lower.

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