IrishAl Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Did you post this in the wrong thread, by the way? Nope. and FastEddieB who has presented a lot of flying safety advice and helped me re-examine my thought process more than once. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Ok, this sucks, but after reinstalling the oil cooler and test flying, I have the same problem. Even though I got the flow up from 7GPM to 9.5GPM, the high oil temps remain. I'm seeking feedback from CTLS fliers. Can you please share your cruise power setting (5100-5200) oil pressure. I'm trying to eliminate oil flow issues as a culprit. I'm seeing around 60PSI in 80F OAT conditions. If that's in line with the rest of you, I know that I don't have a flow issue. My logic is I'd see a pressure difference compared to norm if I had any flow restrictions. BTW, if those that actually know what they're talking about disagree with my logic, please speak up! Parallel to this, I'm adding some baffling around the radiator at the intake, as I can drive a truck through the gaps at the top and sides. I'm amazed that the area is so open. My Cirrus was so tightly baffled you could compare it to a duck's ass. Again, any knowledgeable feedback is welcome! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 I got relief from the power flush, that and going back to the mobile 1 4xt oil. It wasn't back to new but a good improvement. The open question for guys like us is 'what chanted?' We were capable of cooling in all situations till something changed and now we are limited. Wah happnend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Ok, this sucks, but after reinstalling the oil cooler and test flying, I have the same problem. Even though I got the flow up from 7GPM to 9.5GPM, the high oil temps remain. I'm seeking feedback from CTLS fliers. Can you please share your cruise power setting (5100-5200) oil pressure. I'm trying to eliminate oil flow issues as a culprit. I'm seeing around 60PSI in 80F OAT conditions. If that's in line with the rest of you, I know that I don't have a flow issue. My logic is I'd see a pressure difference compared to norm if I had any flow restrictions. BTW, if those that actually know what they're talking about disagree with my logic, please speak up! Parallel to this, I'm adding some baffling around the radiator at the intake, as I can drive a truck through the gaps at the top and sides. I'm amazed that the area is so open. My Cirrus was so tightly baffled you could compare it to a duck's ass. Again, any knowledgeable feedback is welcome! Thanks! It's supposed to have baffling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 It's supposed to have baffling. Can you send pics of yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Goes on the top and bottom of the radiator, maybe with a little RTV, and extends forward 2-3 inches. It is also held on by zip ties. The zip ties go through small holes made in the baffle material and wraps around the radiator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Anticept, What about the sides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Never seen one with side baffling. Up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Kevin, Have you pulled the front of the oil pump housing off? It is right under the gearbox. If not do it and look for debris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Kevin, Have you pulled the front of the oil pump housing off? It is right under the gearbox. If not do it and look for debris. Roger, Have not. I'm going to try the baffling first, before trying anything else. The labor bill is growing! I'm still hoping to hear from some fellow CT fliers on their normal operating oil pressures. BTW, do you agree that I'd see an oil pressure change if I was having a flow problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Baffling isn't the problem. It wasn't up till now and the only baffling is around the cooler. If you had a flow problem there would be no change in pressure. I would be about ready to remove all oil hoses and start over after the oil pump check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Roger, After re-reviewing my engine data with an engineer friend of mine, it now looks more like the high temps have been occurring for a while. While the temps this past Summer are a bit higher than Summer of 14, the variance is not that significant. He and I feel that I may have been chasing my tail with my logic that something has changed. That said: 1) I'm still following the oil cooler course, albeit slowly. I'm waiting to hear back from Leading Edge, who has asked Rotax if my 9.5GPM at 30PSI oil flow through the cooler (on a test stand) is in spec. Based on #2 below, I won't be surprised if it is. 2) I've been trying to get someone on this site to answer up on their normal oil pressures to see if mine is different. This comes from a conversation that I had with Brett at Leading Edge, in which he felt that I'd see either an increase or decrease in pressure if I had flow restrictions. At that moment, he couldn't remember which, but said it would be based on where the pressure sensor is. 3) The baffling mission stems from conversations with Arian, who was surprised that I had such a gap at the top. He felt that baffling as much possible, including the sides, should have a positive effect on the situation. We're aiming to ram as much air through the radiator as possible. I'm in no way second guessing you, CT-Jedi Master; I'm just stating where my logic came from. With this new data, do you still think we may be off course on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I thought a lot about whether something changed or I just didn't notice at first that climbs were hot. I rejected that thinking, something did change and we never found that change. The flush did get me into a range that I could live with but not like new. If I had to do it again or if I have to do it again I would buy or build the higher capacity cooler. Between CTs and RVs and other 912 ULS installations this problem comes up and I have never seen anyone solve or explain it. You can however live with it. I do miss steep 10,000' dessert climbs without exceeding 230. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 2) I've been trying to get someone on this site to answer up on their normal oil pressures to see if mine is different. This comes from a conversation that I had with Brett at Leading Edge, in which he felt that I'd see either an increase or decrease in pressure if I had flow restrictions. At that moment, he couldn't remember which, but said it would be based on where the pressure sensor is. I would be reluctant to rely on someone else's oil pressure readings. I have seen to many different CT's have readings that were off, but showing low within limits. A simple replacement of the pressure sender (VDO) would bring the numbers back to where they should be. Is it possible that there could be a build up of something around the oil temperature sensor that is making it read higher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Roger, After re-reviewing my engine data with an engineer friend of mine, it now looks more like the high temps have been occurring for a while. While the temps this past Summer are a bit higher than Summer of 14, the variance is not that significant. He and I feel that I may have been chasing my tail with my logic that something has changed. That said: 1) I'm still following the oil cooler course, albeit slowly. I'm waiting to hear back from Leading Edge, who has asked Rotax if my 9.5GPM at 30PSI oil flow through the cooler (on a test stand) is in spec. Based on #2 below, I won't be surprised if it is. 2) I've been trying to get someone on this site to answer up on their normal oil pressures to see if mine is different. This comes from a conversation that I had with Brett at Leading Edge, in which he felt that I'd see either an increase or decrease in pressure if I had flow restrictions. At that moment, he couldn't remember which, but said it would be based on where the pressure sensor is. 3) The baffling mission stems from conversations with Arian, who was surprised that I had such a gap at the top. He felt that baffling as much possible, including the sides, should have a positive effect on the situation. We're aiming to ram as much air through the radiator as possible. I'm in no way second guessing you, CT-Jedi Master; I'm just stating where my logic came from. With this new data, do you still think we may be off course on this? Baffling is a big deal on air cooled engines since we're trying to push air down through the cylinder fins. It makes a huge difference. I imagine it will be a big deal in a CT and rotax too. I can't answer exactly what my temps and pressure is, because I don't remember . Anyways, it also matters which type of sensor. I've since switched 2 of our 3 aircraft to the new electronic sensor, the last one I think, in flight, reads just above the bottom yellow zone on a D-120 EMS set to the rotax engine type. However, those VDO sensors are somewhat unreliable and two sitting next to each other will read several PSI different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I would be reluctant to rely on someone else's oil pressure readings. I have seen to many different CT's have readings that were off, but showing low within limits. A simple replacement of the pressure sender (VDO) would bring the numbers back to where they should be. Is it possible that there could be a build up of something around the oil temperature sensor that is making it read higher? I'm asking for feedback on oil pressures as another datapoint to compare. I swapped the oil temp sensor with the CHT sensor (same p/n); no change. Through parallel means, I have confirmed that the indicated readings are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 "If I had to do it again or if I have to do it again I would buy or build the higher capacity cooler. " According to Leading Edge, I have the larger oil cooler already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 "Baffling is a big deal on air cooled engines since we're trying to push air down through the cylinder fins. It makes a huge difference. I imagine it will be a big deal in a CT and rotax too." Hopefully! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 There is also some supposition that the air going around the radiator is pressurizing the engine compartment and creating back pressure against the flow through the the cooler assembly. My friend made this comment when we were looking at the baffling and, on the surface, it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 "I do miss steep 10,000' dessert climbs without exceeding 230." I cannot get to 2500AGL without getting past 230! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I'm asking for feedback on oil pressures as another datapoint to compare. I swapped the oil temp sensor with the CHT sensor (same p/n); no change. Through parallel means, I have confirmed that the indicated readings are correct. Mine runs about 50 in cruise when warm, but at one point it would only show 30. Replacing the pressure sender brought it back up to 50. That is why I say take others pressure with a grain of salt, because the sender can have an error of over 20 PSI and still read in the green. In addition to swapping the sensors you might try swapping the wire between the Left CHT and the oil pressure sensors to check the harness and the Dynon. It would be easy with a couple short jumpers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 "If I had to do it again or if I have to do it again I would buy or build the higher capacity cooler. " According to Leading Edge, I have the larger oil cooler already. Flight Design wanted over $2,000 for their part number C9997796M I believe this part was used on float planes and tow planes. I could get the same thing from SeaTrab for $200 if I remember correctly. For me the upgrade was a 19 row series 6 cooler http://www.xxl-sale.com/search/?q=Setrab+series+6 The above cooler had more rows and more capacity than mine and the size worked. I think we decided it would be easier to bolt the 2 coolers together than to weld. Dave Armado at FD came up with the high price but someone higher up implied I probably wanted to make my own. In the end I went with the flush and the results were pretty good but not like new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Mine runs about 50 in cruise when warm, but at one point it would only show 30. Replacing the pressure sender brought it back up to 50. That is why I say take others pressure with a grain of salt, because the sender can have an error of over 20 PSI and still read in the green. In addition to swapping the sensors you might try swapping the wire between the Left CHT and the oil pressure sensors to check the harness and the Dynon. It would be easy with a couple short jumpers. 1) Roger the oil pressure sensor variances! 2) I did, indeed, do that as part of verifying the temp issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 Oil pressure from eng. to eng. run about 40-55 psi. There are big differences between senders and even the same model. Mine runs about 50-52 psi. I see many at 40-48 psi. If one is 60 psi+, I question that. Temporary baffling would be an easy quick way to check. But why did your temps go up when from new and the baffling has never changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 Roger, Re-examining my engine data doesn't convince me that my temps have actually gone up. Baffling is the last step I will take. If that fails to fix this, 3WT will be staying with you until you can help me resolve the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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