Roger Lee Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Hi All, First and foremost don't shoot the messenger here as I'm only passing information and I'm in the same boat as you! Rotax has a mandatory 5 year rubber parts and hose replacement program. All coolant, fuel, oil, carb sockets, carb diaphragms, ect... have to be replaced. This is a good time for a carb rebuild because you only need a few more parts. This will be at least a 2 day project because the engine has to be moved out of the way. All hoses interior and exterior need to be replaced including the ones in the "A" post. Those that have a 2005 CT it's your year and it should be done by your annual inspection date. I think we are looking at about $900-$1100. I haven't done one yet so I don't have an exact figure. I know no one wants to be reminded of this, but it is time. For the huge bulk of the CT's it will be due in 2006 and 2007. The 06's start in 2011. Sorry for the reminder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airhound Posted August 8, 2010 Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Belive Jeremy my have all that in a packaged deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Howdy Ranger, Sorry no one has a package setup yet. All the parts are separate. I have already ask around. I'm working with Rex in Tulsa to get something together. The rubber fuel hose in the "A" post is the one that attaches to the outlet fitting up at the wing bulkhead just under the fuel site gauge. It is about 10" long and will be a joy to replace. You have to drill a hole in the inside of the "A" post to get to the clamp and I didn't even mention getting a new hose back on. Who ever thought of that one should seek counseling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airhound Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Roger any news/experience to share...We heard from Tom B that it was more like ~3500 and a challenge to hunt down some of the parts? Anybody else done one yet?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Still working on it, but it looks like around $2500 up to $3000. Right around 24 hrs. of labor. There are some variables and I'm working on it. No answers from the people I need info from yet. One variable would be , some have metal fuel lines and some red rubber fuel lines. The red rubber ones need to be replaced and they are $338. I don't believe we'll have to replace the actual fuel pump. So right now it is a little wait and see. I'll keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastoz Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 DELETED - question answered on another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sword_guy Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Hi all. I have just recently done the hose replacement and I did not have to remove the engine. Also, I don't see anywhere in the CT manual that hose replacement is required, so it would be hoses supplied by Rotax only. This does not include the hoses which run from the pillar into the engine bay to the Y fitting. Those hoses should obviously be inspected for hardening and replaced on condition. The only things I had to remove to do it on the aircraft were the muffler, and the intake manifolds (carbs came off too since it was time for inspection). I was able to get at all the band-it clamps with a Dremel cutoff wheel and then a normal band-it tool for reinstallation. I was able to get at all the spring clamps except for one with hose clamp pliers (the kind with the cable). The one I couldn't get to with that tool was the top left clamp on the water pump housing. I used long handled needle nosed pliers to get at and push it toward the pump. I hope this information helps everyone since it's a method which saves pulling the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Hi Sword_Guy, The CT manual doesn't have a hose change, but the Rotax does and FD as the other SLSA Mfgs say you must follow that maint schedule and it is required. I just finished another hose replacement today by pulling the engine. I might give leaving the engine on a try. I have two more lined up within the next 2 weeks. It's certainly worth a try. Your the only person I know of that has done it this way and I'm game if it works. Seems like some stuff would be fairly tough. I'll try the next one with the engine on and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Hi Sword_Guy, I was just thinking. Did you change all the fuel hose on the firewall and inside the instrument panel? These need to be done as it's part of the Rotax fuel system. It is far easier to remove the fuel shut off valve and all the hose attached then build it as a unit then replace it as a unit. If you have a Dynon with a Flow Scan fuel flow sender that would be awful tough to get to and cut clamps and re-apply them? Were you able to get to the 25mm hose on the back of the engine where the coolant lines come off in both directions? You should change the rubber engine isolators at this time and they have to be done with the engine off? Did you replace the carb parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastoz Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Roger.....I have attached a photo of Page 8,(2.1) 05-10-00 of the BRP-Powertrain Maintenance Manual. It refers to the "Time Limit for Rubber Parts and lists the components and systems that must be replaced. This is the latest version I have, so please let me know if there is a later one. My understanding is that the rubber engine isolators are not a mandatory item for replacement at 5 years but of course on inspection if they have deteriorated, then they should be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Howdy OZ, That is the current list. Your right that the rubber isolators are not a mandatory replacement here, but since the only way to replace them is to pull the engine then it would be crazy not to do them right then and there. They are 5 years old too in all that heat and the pressure from the sagging engine. These are what allow the engine to sag because they soften with time, get smashed down, get exhaust blow by on the bottom ones on some planes, are cracked on many planes. This is the cause of the problem that many have talked about where the engine over time starts to sag and is easily seen up at the prop spinner where the cowl and spinner distance grows and the engine sags. It takes me maybe 25 min. to replace these with the engine off and it is very easy. It would be crazy not to do this any time the engine comes off. It says all rubber hose in the fuel system. It does not limit that to firewall forward. The fuel system hose listed in the Rotax manual is in the engine compartment and in the instrument panel. Connecting hoses (air intake) for the carbs air intake. This is the 3" CEET air intake hoses. Also the 1 3/4" cabin heat hose on top of the muffler gets very worn and does get holes in it. Like the engine isolators since you are into taking the muffler off and into this job this far it would be crazy not to buy 2' of this 1 3/4" CEET hose and just replace it. The bottom line is you are into this job so far and certain things can only be replaced when the engine or other components are already removed why on earth would someone not replace the exposed part since you will sooner or later have to do it all over again just to get to the part you didn't want to replace right then and there. This is where good fore thought pays big savings in money and time by being a little proactive and insightful be doing one or two things now and not waiting. It's a matter of pay a little more now or pay a bunch more latter for double and triple the labor. What you are preventing is to go through all this work for 2.5 -3 days and then 6 months later have a mechanic say "Hey these tings are worn out, time to replace them". Then you pay all over again. Being proactive and not reactive can save a lot of money in the longer run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Being proactive and not reactive can save a lot of money in the longer run. In my opinion, this is a case where the owner has an ultimate responsibility to become an informed consumer. I have seen cases in the traditional GA side where owners are pressured by mechanics to "better be safe than sorry" and end up spending money that can not be justified. It is very, very illuminating to see the level of maintenance followed by a charter company running piston twins and flight schools running light singles. I've worked with mechanics who work for a company like that and the level of maintenance they provide for the company and what they push for their outside customers can be quite different. I appreciate Roger's detailed explanation of why he recommends certain procedures. At the same time, I like to keep my eyes wide open as to how some companies have used old fashioned and outdated procedures to continue to justify maintenance practices that can't be justified. LOP is one such example. Replacing items on time and not on condition can be another. If an item should be replaced on time, that time should be established because an unacceptable condition either will be or very likely may be coming up. Mechanic's concerns about liability is seen more and more often in the traditional GA side (did I say Cirrus?) and I hope that is not something we will see in LSA. I am switching to SP for a number of reasons, but one very attractive aspect of LSA ownership is that I can legally get more fully involved in maintenance decisions and responsibility than I have felt able to do on the traditional GA side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Hi Jim, I don't really make anything on parts because I'm a service business. I try never to be out dated, but 2 steps a head of the MFG and I'm sure some of the MFG's wishes I wasn't. Less phone calls and letters to them. The big factor for me is not only do I see a ton of CT's come through my shop with all kinds of little issues, but I own one and I specialize in the CT and Rotax. The other A&P's service many other types of aircraft and darn few specialize. I see every little wear issue and have to work on every little problem that may not have become a problem it were taken care of a little sooner. If you don't take care of it at the shop it may ground you a long ways away from a mechanic. I owned a helicopter and that's a highly timed parts timed machine not to mention the work hour commitment. You may find SLSA every bit as demanding as the GA aircraft and you may not do as much maint. as the GA guys can on your own SLSA aircraft. Forget GA because the rules for SLSA are quite different and some more specific. I only share on the forum what I see come through the shop and what may have been done to prevent issues or make the pilots life easy and less complicated. Flying from inspection to inspection and not having to go back to the mechanic because they didn't know to inform you of a pending issue, is peace of mind. I talk to CT owners all over the world so I get a pretty good idea of what's happening and why. I do work and research on my plane in the hopes that others can stay a head of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kentuckynet Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Roger On the planes you have done so far how many of these lines/hoses were dry rotted or showed any sign they needed replacing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Hi Mack, Hope you weather is warming up and drying out? I look forward to seeing you and your wife again at Page, AZ. None, but that's not the point. If they were like that it was way to late and you would have already screwed up. There is no real way to ever tell when a hose will go south. The idea is to replace them before an incident happens. If you develop a little pin hole leak in your oil line or coolant you may have just lost the engine and I don't just mean in a dollar since. You can't pull over to the curb. These rules and regs wouldn't be here if things hadn't happened in the past. That said give someone an inch as far as making their own decision based on their knowledge and that's not always a good thing because then they want a yard. Give them that yard then they want 10 yards. So the way I look at it from almost 30 years of rescuing people from themselves in the fire service you have to draw the line in the sand some where and on the safer side is usually better. Besides you may loose that engine over a populated area.Too many people flying make important decisions based on solely on money and flying can't be done that way. Most of us fly over too much ugly terrain to land in so why set yourself up for failure with a possible failing plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastoz Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 Having some trouble navigating the CPS site. Can someone confirm that the Valve Cover O-Ring Set #881 920 is comprised of:- 4 of #430-205 O-Ring 64x18 R/cover INNER 2009 4 of #250-285 O-Ring 105x25 R/cover OUTER 2009 Have I missed anything? Roger....your Feb. CPS order only showed 1 kit (881-920) so I assume this does all 4 rocker covers. Sorry to be a PITA but want to get it right as we are a long way from California! Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 Hi Dave, Those are the right part numbers. They come in that kit I posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastoz Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 Thanks Roger....I will order today. Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 Dave, Those "O" rings you listed above are already in the rubber hose kit. Don't buy more. Make sure you either have the two stainless steel carb feed lines or the red rubber carb feed lines. Most all the 2006 Rotax engines here have the stainless steel lines, but if you have the two red rubber lines you will need to add that to your order. Stainless lines are good to go and never need replacement. They are an extra $338. As the CT's rubber replacement moves on into 2007 and later then Rotax had switched to those red rubber lines later on. all those people will need those lines. Depending on how many hours you have on your engine i.e. 800+ hrs then you may want to consider the carb rebuild kit. $249 and that's for both carbs. A full rebuild except for the floats. If you get the carb rebuild kit then delete the 2 carb diaphragms from the rubber kit order as the diaphragms are already in the carb rebuild kit. I would recommend to take one hose off at a time, cut it and replace it. This will keep you from making hose cut mistakes and a possibility of a short run of hose. there is plenty of hose, but not if you make many mistakes. There is enough to make a mistake or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 Had a Bonanza catch fire at the self serve fuel pump today at KFHU when a engine fuel line busted under the cowling, sprayed fuel all over the engine during start and caught fire. A couple ramp guys were quick to grab extinquishers and put it out before anyone got hurt. Not sure how old the fuel line was or what condition, but a 5 year replacement interval sounds good to me as a preventative measure to keep something like this from happening to my CT. No need to pinch pennies when it comes to safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 Here, here, you have my vote. As a firefighter for 28 years I can say I seen everything burn that's under the hood. At 8K feet how fast can you get to the ground if you're on fire. The answer is, see you at the funeral. If you own a plane don't pinch pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastoz Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 Those "O" rings you listed above are already in the rubber hose kit. Don't buy more. Make sure you either have the two stainless steel carb feed lines or the red rubber carb feed lines. Most all the 2006 Rotax engines here have the stainless steel lines, but if you have the two red rubber lines you will need to add that to your order. Stainless lines are good to go and never need replacement. They are an extra $338. As the CT's rubber replacement moves on into 2007 and later then Rotax had switched to those red rubber lines later on. all those people will need those lines. Depending on how many hours you have on your engine i.e. 800+ hrs then you may want to consider the carb rebuild kit. $249 and that's for both carbs. A full rebuild except for the floats. If you get the carb rebuild kit then delete the 2 carb diaphragms from the rubber kit order as the diaphragms are already in the carb rebuild kit. I would recommend to take one hose off at a time, cut it and replace it. This will keep you from making hose cut mistakes and a possibility of a short run of hose. there is plenty of hose, but not if you make many mistakes. There is enough to make a mistake or two. Roger....yes I am fortunate to have the stainless steel lines, so have saved $338 right away. I will probably order the carb rebuild kit even though I only have 400 hours on my Rotax. I figure that the gaskets will probably need replacing and even if I don't install the jets, carb needle etc., I will eventually need spares. I am ordering exactly as per your Feb order but have deleted the diaphragms as you suggested and amended the lengths of some hoses in accordance with your earlier post. I also ordered 16 rubber engine isolators from Fiat Ricambi (Holland) which were only €0.85(US$1.20)each. Thanks again for your help with all of this....it has made life a lot easier! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 Had a Bonanza catch fire at the self serve fuel pump today at KFHU when a engine fuel line busted under the cowling, sprayed fuel all over the engine during start and caught fire. Are they 100% sure of the sequence? One can badly flood an engine, especially during a hot start, which I think can introduce raw fuel into or under the cowling. I know a Cirrus with the boost pump left on will puddle gas on the ground under the engine. Then any spark could ignite that fuel which could then melt the engine fuel line, leading one to believe that was the proximate cause. Don't know if that was the case, just that it might be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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