GravityKnight Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Pretty rough conditions... pretty gusty and some real bad down drafts (couple times on final) that definitely got my attention! I started landing the last few without flaps and some extra speed. A better pilot than me could land in these conditions with flaps I'm sure, I probably "could".. but I only have 23 hours total flying time and I've found the wind to be less "grabby" when the flaps are up... Just thought I'd share my x-wind landing experiences from yesterday, made 8 landings, put a few in the video... Check ride coming up soon...Thanks for watching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 The head cam perspective is confusing to me. Your flying appears to be at an advanced level for a student. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Yeah, 16kt almost direct crosswind? That is good flying there, nice forward slip and working it down on one wheel. I don't know if I could do that well, and I have my ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted July 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 My instructor said I've picked it up quick.. I solo'd at 10 hours. My dad had a 150 with a 150hp swap and an ultralight, last time I flew with him I was 13 (30 now).. but I have always had the love of flying, and been interested in how an airplane works. Part of why I was prepared for this, was that the wind has been really bad most of the time I've been learning.... so I've had a lot of practice with my instructor in pretty good wind. This was the worst I've flown in solo through for sure! But doing probably 30+ landings with my instructor in different winds has helped prepare me I think. Thanks for watching the video and for the comments... much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted July 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Better pilot landing in crosswinds and downdrafts with flaps? Why? The whole point is, you need SPEED when landing in such conditions. Using too much flap is not the mark of a good pilot, its the mark of a guy with too much Cessna and metal plane experience not fully transitioned to carbon fiber yet. Your landing was just dandy as long as you were able to get down without undue stress on the gear or you. I agree.. I actually had one of the older instructors w/ over 8000 hours come up to me after this and tell me I shouldn't have been flying in that wind... and he explained that landing without flaps was the wrong way to do this. I just smiled and said ok I'll take that into consideration... my instructor taught me to land the CT without when it's bad.. and it worked out well for me. With almost 2 miles of runway... I don't see the issue myself. Flying in that wind is risky no doubt, but I feel like I handled it fine and you can't learn that stuff from a book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Using too much flap is not the mark of a good pilot, its the mark of a guy with too much Cessna and metal plane experience not fully transitioned to carbon fiber yet. I have seen you make this and similar comments before. I have no idea where you get the idea that the material a machine is made of changes its flight characteristics. How an airplane flies is based on shape, weight, and CG. While carbon fiber materials are lighter than most metals, Don't think for a minute that you could not design two aircraft the exact same size and shape, one of metal and one of carbon, where the carbon aircraft was both heavier and flew worse than the metal one. Carbon fiber has some advantages (and some disadvantages) compared to metal. It is not a magical blend of pixie dust, hopes and dreams, and puppy kisses that mystically levitates airplanes on gentle and fragrant unicorn farts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Better pilot landing in crosswinds and downdrafts with flaps? Why? The whole point is, you need SPEED when landing in such conditions. The whole point is 'safe consistent landings at minimum speed for current coditions'. Simply calling for SPEED isn't helpful, how much speed and why? A 14kt quartering crosswind doesn't call for any additional speed, but it was gusty and 1/2 the gust factor makes sense. The conditions were arguably a bit tame for no flaps at all. You already have good flying skills so why add extra speed? Landing fast only postpones the vulnerable speed zone where it is easy to get gusted and hard to counter it because you are both flying and fast taxiing at the same time. 'Using too much flap is not the mark of a good pilot, its the mark of a guy with too much Cessna and metal plane experience not fully transitioned to carbon fiber yet.' The transition isn't from metal to carbon fiber but from a higher wing loading to a lightly loaded wing. A metal air frame can be quite slippery. The issue isn't using 'too much' flap but an appropriate amount. You argue that carbon fiber is slippery, ok lets agree that we have a slippery airframe, doesn't that call for more flaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Just to point out that composite planes have not proven to be consistently lighter than either metal or tube & fabric. My Sky Arrow is composite, yet still kind of porky at 861 lbs empty. Similarly, neither Cirruses or Columbias are significantly lighter than comparable planes. The promise is there, but there's still work to be done to realize that promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Nice landings. In gusty crosswind conditions, some extra speed does decrease the effective crosswind component, and is appropriate. If you can land in those conditions consistently with no flaps, that's a matter of preference. I usually use at least one notch of flaps, but that's just me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted July 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 The whole point is 'safe consistent landings at minimum speed for current coditions'. Simply calling for SPEED isn't helpful, how much speed and why? A 14kt quartering crosswind doesn't call for any additional speed, but it was gusty and 1/2 the gust factor makes sense. The conditions were arguably a bit tame for no flaps at all. You already have good flying skills so why add extra speed? Landing fast only postpones the vulnerable speed zone where it is easy to get gusted and hard to counter it because you are both flying and fast taxiing at the same time. 'Using too much flap is not the mark of a good pilot, its the mark of a guy with too much Cessna and metal plane experience not fully transitioned to carbon fiber yet.' The transition isn't from metal to carbon fiber but from a higher wing loading to a lightly loaded wing. A metal air frame can be quite slippery. The issue isn't using 'too much' flap but an appropriate amount. You argue that carbon fiber is slippery, ok lets agree that we have a slippery airframe, doesn't that call for more flaps? Makes sense. Part of the extra speed was from experiancing some good sinkers coming in over the runway. The flaps thing may be a mental block at this point, I feel like I have more control, so I give up some safety with the extra speed, but bring back in some control with the flaps up. I will be working on landing in crosswinds with flaps as time goes on.. I'm nearly finished building my own dirt strip on my property, only have about 1800ft... so I will need flaps down the road.... thanks everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 1,800' dirt strip at high DA sounds quite reasonable but its a far cry from 2 miles of runway. How slow will the surface be? Will there be obstacles? Do you have a good aim? Sounds like fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted July 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 1,800' dirt strip at high DA sounds quite reasonable but its a far cry from 2 miles of runway. How slow will the surface be? Will there be obstacles? Do you have a good aim? Sounds like fun. Yea my place is at 6600ft elevation so it could be interesting. The strip is actually a little longer than 1800 (2000-2200) but usable is less due to some obstacles and such. It was a driveway that I converted into a strip.. widened it out a bunch, smoothed, flattened best I could etc. My folk's live at one end, me the other, but their house is in line at one end, and there are power lines off my end. So neither end has a perfect approach, although not terrible either. Thankfully the fields on all 4 sides are pretty open in case of a departure emergency. My plan is to buy a kitfox at some point. I do really like the CT's...I'm 6'4" so the length and width is a huge plus... obviously a very nice airplane, but well out of my price range But a used tri-gear 912 powered kitfox may be something I can get into in the next year or two. GravityKnight. Don't let anyone talk you into using too much flap, or try to land near stall speed in the CT. What you did in the crosswind was EXACTLY RIGHT. Plus even on a calm day to be safer come in around 62kts with no more than 15 degree flaps just in case you get a gust. When you know there is wind and you know there is turbulence speed is the best friend you have. The CT is like flying a powered glider, it has very low drag and will respond to ground effect better than any metal airplane. Guys who come from the metal world have a tough time accepting the difference and still insist on stall landings. One day those guys are gonna flip their CT or worse, bounce and crash their gear because they do not respect the flight characteristics of an all carbon fiber, very light airplane. Good job on your tough day landing. Thank you sir. I do recognize the importance of being able to land this aircraft or any other at very slow speed. I didn't feel that yesterday was that day, especially for me. On calm days I run 15 deg and hold it off until it gets pretty slow. My instructor let me land with 30 at one point as well even though the school doesn't "allow" that.. he knows about the runway I'm building and wanted me to get an intro to landing with lots of flaps. I know there are two sides to how to land these planes. I honestly can see both sides, and see a real time for both as well. I hope I can further my skill in all types of situations and styles of landing. And boy do these things like to float... they will sit in ground effect for a long time if you work at it. Has the potential to make the short field landing on the check ride a bit of a challenge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 As far as floating... ...no real reason the CT should float excessively, unless extra speed is involved. In fact, low wing planes are much more prone to ground effect, and therefore floating, due to the closer proximity of the wing to the ground. I think the trick is to be at about 1.3 the stall speed for your configuration at about 1 wingspan above the ground. Then the roundout should have you arrive in ground effect with very little excess speed over the stall, and hence very little float. Of course, all things being equal, more flaps=less float, but the degree of flaps used seems to be a very individual thing, and plenty of discussion on that can already be found here. And, of course, do things the way your instructor wants you to - he has your best interests at heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 GravityKnight. Don't let anyone talk you into using too much flap, or try to land near stall speed in the CT. What you did in the crosswind was EXACTLY RIGHT. Here is a standard tailored to the CT from Elite Flight Training at KVGT N. Las Vegas, which is also where FD West is located: On calm day approach at 62kts with 15 degree flaps. On wind day approach at 62kts plus gust factor which is the (difference between the wind gust speed minus wind speed divided by 2). Example: Wind Gust Speed 18kts, Wind Speed 8kts. Approach speed would be 62kts + ((18-8)/2=5kts) = 67kts. You can use 15 degree flaps or not dependent on your judgement to hold that speed. Make sure not to exceed flap Vfe. When you know there is wind and you know there is turbulence speed is the best friend you have. The CT is like flying a powered glider, it has very low drag and will respond to ground effect better than any metal airplane. Guys who come from the metal world have a tough time accepting the difference and still insist on stall landings. One day those guys are gonna flip their CT or worse, bounce and crash their gear because they do not respect the flight characteristics of an all carbon fiber, very light airplane. Good job on your tough day landing. Best wait until CTSLi posts a video of *his* landings before taking his advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 I agree with Eddie, if you are floating it is because you have excess speed. Subtract enough speed and the float will go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 The CT floats because it doesn't want to land. When you apply flaps it aggravates that and makes the plain float even more. The speed compensates for that. Try landing with the parameters I offered to you, you will find yourself a happy camper every time, and you will touchdown without thumping the gear and putting undue wear on you and the plane. Remember to control your speed with the NOSE DOWN, not adding throttle. Flaps create more float?????? Where do you get that from? Don't you think that flaps cause a steeper glide path? If I want to approach more steeply I add flaps, i get more sink, am I screwing up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted July 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 And, of course, do things the way your instructor wants you to - he has your best interests at heart. Definitely... he showed me I could land without flaps in bad wind to gain a bit more control. He has also had me land with 30 because we flew over my runway and he saw what I'm up against. I think he wanted me to experience a variety of different options and how they can be used in certain situations. Thanks for the advice in your posts by the way. I usually approach at 60 knots with 15 deg of flaps. It still wants to float a while with just me in it.. not bad.. but it takes a bit before it's ready to land. And yea, it floats longer with no flaps.. which makes sense considering they are basically air brakes. It seems even at 15 the extra drag outweights the extra lift... interesting discussion there though considering you use 15 for a short field take off.. and it really does work.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 The CT is like flying a powered glider, it has very low drag and will respond to ground effect better than any metal airplane. Guys who come from the metal world have a tough time accepting the difference and still insist on stall landings. Ugh, there you go again. Please look at the following picture of a metal airplane and tell me if you'd like to revise your remarks regarding a CT being more responsive to ground effect than any metal airplane: Any statement in aviation (or anywhere else, really) that uses the terms "always", "never", "every", "any", or "none" is usually incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 I usually approach at 60 knots with 15 deg of flaps. It still wants to float a while with just me in it.. not bad.. but it takes a bit before it's ready to land. It's possible to approach at 60 knots, yet to arrive in ground effect with maybe 45 kts. That's what the "roundout" is for. Those speeds are about what I use in my Sky Arrow, but almost always with flaps 30° - unless the wind is really howling (less flaps) or the field is really short (less than 60k), I have one video that shows my airspeed indicator pretty clearly during my landing sequence - I'll link it shortly to demonstrate my point about speed in the roundout. Caveat - once the roundout begins, I do not usually even glance at the airspeed - eyes need to be outside of the cockpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 Here's that video. Best on HD and full screen. It should start at about 4:25 - if not feel free to fast forward to that point for the relevant part. Notes: The bottom of the white arc is at 39k (Vso) so the large numbers on the airspeed indicator are at 40k and 60k. The flaps are controlled by the little lever on the left of the panel - my habit is to go to full flaps on base (that's another discussion), but in any case they're at the full 30º throughout the video. 10º is what the POH calls for on takeoff, which you'll see if you watch it through the touch and go. It looks like I start the roundout at about 55k and arrive in ground effect at about 45k and land very close to the 39k stall speed with minimal float. 30º flaps on one plane may be very different than 30º flaps in another. In the Sky Arrow they're not real effective. In a Cessna with "barn door" flaps, the same degree of flaps may have a much greater effect. Others can chime in on where the CT flaps fall on that spectrum. Take a look at these two approach types (from Kershner): The top one I would describe as "zooming" into ground effect. You would arrive there with most of your approach speed and float would be invevitable. The bottom one is closer to what I aim for. Next time I'm at the airport, I may try an approach and landing more like the top one and video it. I think it will show a much increased "float". One final note: notice I do not touch anything (other than the finger brakes) on the final landing until clear of the active. That's a good habit to get into from early on. Again, maybe show this to your instructor and see what he or she thinks. If they differ on any point, by all means listen to them over some random guy posting to an internet forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Jefts Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 Definitely... he showed me I could land without flaps in bad wind to gain a bit more control. He has also had me land with 30 because we flew over my runway and he saw what I'm up against. I think he wanted me to experience a variety of different options and how they can be used in certain situations. Thanks for the advice in your posts by the way. I usually approach at 60 knots with 15 deg of flaps. It still wants to float a while with just me in it.. not bad.. but it takes a bit before it's ready to land. And yea, it floats longer with no flaps.. which makes sense considering they are basically air brakes. It seems even at 15 the extra drag outweights the extra lift... interesting discussion there though considering you use 15 for a short field take off.. and it really does work.... I don't generally get into these discussions but I would like to congratulate you on very nice xwind landings and I think your instructors have given you great advice. I thank you for sharing your video and look forward to more. I would be careful about taking the advice of all the posts on this forum. Some of them are great and some not so much. I think you are ahead of the game right now - stay with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 ... ... To answer your question 30 degrees on a ct is quite effective and comes with a big pitch change. Thats a great image Eddie. I use both methods and prefer the 2nd one but when landing at high DA the conditions dictate. Using the same speed I may experience dramatically different feels when approaching round out altitude. If the air feels heavy and the sink seems slow enough I end up level at 1' bleeding speed. Sometimes the air feels like its not even there and I am in freefall ( rapid sink ) and in this case there is no float at all and I am arriving at the aft stop as i contact. MY CT is 721lbs empty and If I fly it solo and low fuel and no baggage I have to use a slower approach speed to avoid floating. I might use 50kts vs 55kts when I'm 'heavy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 The Airplane Flying Handbook is a very good place to start when it comes to basic flying. It's time tested and has been used for myriad light airplanes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 That was a very well controlled landing. It showed very good understanding and use of proper cross wind technique. Bravo. As your hours increase in the CT and you expand your knowledge of the planes operating limits you will find this a most capable aircraft. It is obvious that you were we'll schooled in proper technique, bravo. The below quote is a clear indication that the student did not grasp the correct concepts of flight or aerodynamics. The CT floats because it doesn't want to land. When you apply flaps it aggravates that and makes the plain float even more. The speed compensates for that. Try landing with the parameters I offered to you, you will find yourself a happy camper every time, and you will touchdown without thumping the gear and putting undue wear on you and the plane. Remember to control your speed with the NOSE DOWN, not adding throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 GN, good job on the landing. This talk of landing faster or slower in a crosswind has been around long before the CT was even a dream. When these conditions exist just land the airplane in a way that works well for you and let others land the way they want. The exception to the rule is if it is someone elses airplane try and land it the way they want it landed. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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