Jim Meade Posted July 18, 2013 Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 Landing on the numbers is a habit that starts with primary training at small airports in light airplanes. When you fly bigger planes, you use the aiming point and expect wheels down at the touchdown point. Landing on the numbers if probably a bad habit. That is not the same as landing on a selected point, which is a good skill to have. Floating with a crosswind is an invitation to drifting off the centerline of the runway. Not usually desireable. Floating implies that one doesn't really know or have a plan for where the wheels will touch down, which means lack of precision. There is nothing good to be said about floating in contrast to a normal roundout (flare) and touchdown. During the float, most pilots are along for the rid rather in in control. Balloon means a gain - usually a noticeable gain - in altitude. There is no way to confuse a float and a balloon. One is bad and the other is worse. All CFI's hopefully demonstrate a balloon and teach how to respond to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted July 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 I error on the side of coming in a bit hot and floating some. And I'd much rather error on that side of the fence (on most runways)... but I'm going to work at reducing float. I can pick a general area now and touch down in it.. but I want that area to be more precise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted July 18, 2013 Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 I like the link CharlieTango posted. I agree with most of it. Float matters little in a light sport with thousands of feet to land. But... Let's say we have three (totally fictional) pilots: Fast Freddie approches at 55k, rounds out to 45k and floats maybe 200' on average. Roger Dee approaches at 60k, rounds out to 50k and floats maybe 300' on average. G. Biggs approaches at 65k, carries it all into ground effect and floats maybe 600' on average. Who cares? Well, let's assume for a minute that they're flying to Oshkosh, where the NOTAM asks you to land on a spot. Let's further assume that all three pilots are about equally skilled and can get pretty consistent floats of no more than 10% +/-. Fast Freddie, then, can nail his touchdown spot +/- 20 feet, impressing the Oshkosh volunteers. Roger Dee, then, can nail his touchdown spot +/- 30 feet, satisfying the Oshkosh volunteers. G. Biggs, then, can nail his touchdown spot +/-60 feet, and has the Oshkosh volunteers holding their breath as his 60' overshoot starts to get him uncomfortably close to the aircraft landing on the next spot, who's undershooting by an equal or greater amount. Exaggerated? Sure. But the ability to put the plane on the spot you want is a good skill to have, and one that I think is facilitated by a minimal, consistent float. And we may not always be flying LSA's into huge runways. A Mooney or a Cirrus floating down a 2,500' runway can be a real concern, and overrun accidents are all too common. As far as aiming for the numbers, there is generally no reason to do so. I like to do it for practice. I think I've come up short exactly once, when a matter of inches kicked up a little gravel onto RWY 9R at Opa Locka. Anyway, this is all a matter of technique - but just be cognizant of which techniques are more likely to cause problems down the road - either way! Later today I may have one more thought experiment - I'll either post it here or in a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 18, 2013 Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 Folks need to remember than landing is a dyamic process too, not a script. If you are coming in power off and you look short, add a little power until your intended landing area is assured. If you are doing a powered approach and you are high, add flaps or reduce power or both. The time to take corrective action for something not going as planned is as soon as you notice it, not when it has progressed so far that you are stuck with excess float, ballooning, landing short, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 18, 2013 Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 Hi Eddie, Roger Dee doesn't care and those pesky volunteers need to move out of his way. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Hi Eddie, Roger Dee doesn't care and those pesky volunteers need to move out of his way. LOL So I've heard!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 If you are coming in short and add power, be sure to push ahead to compensate. You do not want to change pitch attitude. Therefore, when you pull the power back out you are still in trim. A powered approach that is high may need power reduced, flaps and a slip. Be sure to not put the nose down to "aim" at the touchdown point. That will only add speed which increases lift which will make the problem worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted July 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 Thanks Eddie and everyone else for the advice. I was able to go flying today again... conditions were better than they have been lately (no more than 6 knots tonight). I was able to really focus on standardizing my entire approach and it's neat to see the how close the results are each time. I came in with a little slower approach since conditions were nicer. 60 knots which became 55knots as I got closer to the round out. This produced very little float after round out and a very predictable touch down point. I feel good about the short field part of the check ride. Of course the extra weight of a passenger will mean a closer touch down, so I'll need a bit more speed or power... It was very interesting to see how much less float just 5 knots actually makes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 Does CT list a short field approach speed? 60k still seems just a bit fast. Assuming a 39k stall speed, 1.3 x that is just 51k. And the 1.3 number is usually for normal approach and landings. 1.2 is typical for short field, which translates to about 47k. But for your calculations use the stall speed for the configuration you use. Regardless of flap preference for normal landings, I would generally imagine full flaps for a short field. And all the stall speeds listed are for a plane at maximum gross weight. Since you should be lighter most of the time, that buys you additional cushion as well. But review and practice all this with your instructor, and set rock bottom "line in the sand" minimum speeds that you will not EVER go below on approach under any circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 set rock bottom "line in the sand" minimum speeds that you will not EVER go below on approach under any circumstances. And then add 5-10 knots, just to feel better. On top of the 5-10 that your instructor already added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 Does CT list a short field approach speed? 60k still seems just a bit fast. Assuming a 39k stall speed, 1.3 x that is just 51k. And the 1.3 number is usually for normal approach and landings. 1.2 is typical for short field, which translates to about 47k. But for your calculations use the stall speed for the configuration you use. Regardless of flap preference for normal landings, I would generally imagine full flaps for a short field. And all the stall speeds listed are for a plane at maximum gross weight. Since you should be lighter most of the time, that buys you additional cushion as well. But review and practice all this with your instructor, and set rock bottom "line in the sand" minimum speeds that you will not EVER go below on approach under any circumstances. From experience 47kts makes a good absolute minimum and 55kts makes a good standard speed for most of my approaches. I do have to subtract some speed when I am light to avoid floating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 Does CT list a short field approach speed? 60k still seems just a bit fast. Assuming a 39k stall speed, 1.3 x that is just 51k. And the 1.3 number is usually for normal approach and landings. 1.2 is typical for short field, which translates to about 47k. But for your calculations use the stall speed for the configuration you use. Regardless of flap preference for normal landings, I would generally imagine full flaps for a short field. And all the stall speeds listed are for a plane at maximum gross weight. Since you should be lighter most of the time, that buys you additional cushion as well. But review and practice all this with your instructor, and set rock bottom "line in the sand" minimum speeds that you will not EVER go below on approach under any circumstances. The latest AOI lists 55kts as the approach speed for 15 flaps, 52kts for 30 flaps, and 48kts for 30 flap short field landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 And, for the SW, it lists 45K flaps 40 if an engine failure and landing off airport. Personally, I think that may be too slow. I'll do 50K with flaps 30 or 40, but have never tried slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted July 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 I should mention.. on my 55knot round out landings I'm using 15 deg of flaps... which is the max we are ALLOWED to use. Yes, you read that right. My instructor actually got in trouble for demonstrating 30 deg landings (and letting me do a couple to get a feel for it with him there). Because he feels, probably like most of us, that we should know all the capabilities of the airplane and be able to use them. But the owners of the school have now made it a rule in writing no one (even instructors) are allowed to use over 15 deg of flaps... personally I think this is a load of crap. The guys running the school are great guys, but I strongly do not see eye to eye on this, and neither does my instructor. They also have a rule about no more than 10knot of crosswind when renting one of their CT's ... regardless of who you are. My instructor thought it was awesome I was out tackling 14knot direct crosswinds, said he wasn't worried at all.. the owners were not as thrilled. I didn't realize this rule at the time. I had flown in worse with my instructor quite a few times, I knew I could handle it, I knew it wasn't over the listed value in the POH, I went for it and it felt good to take it on alone. They told me it was over my limitations (I disagree, so I showed them the video and they said.. well that was good but we don't want anyone going up if its over 10 knots crosswind and 20 knots overall). Obviously I respect these guys so I'm not going out of my way to break their rules.. I just felt it was a good challenge and was excited to conquer it without an instructor sitting next to me who "could" take over. This place is pretty windy most of the year (it's been calm about 3 minutes so far this year haha)... so having experience in the wind is key. They have some strange rules here... but... it is their planes- and that's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Jefts Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 More than likely their insurance company dictate the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 It's called the Golden Rule - they have the gold (plane) so they make the rules. I wonder how this will work when the examiner wants a full flap short field and you say you don't know how? If someone came to me for an aircraft check out, any aircraft not just the CT, if they could not demonstrate the ability to safely handle the plane in all POH permitted configurations, I would not sign them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted July 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 Apparently the examiners are playing by their rules too?... (quite a few people take their check rides in these CT's) I don't get it either... a person should know the plane they are flying inside and out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 You should follow their rules, until you shouldn't. If you get into an emergency situation, and need flaps to get down short/slow enough, use the full 40 if you need it. They might not let you rent from them anymore, but you'll be alive which is a pretty good trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 And, for the SW, it lists 45K flaps 40 if an engine failure and landing off airport. Personally, I think that may be too slow. I'll do 50K with flaps 30 or 40, but have never tried slower. If I'm landing off airport I want to do is as slowly as possible. 45kt sounds good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 The problem with 45K is you have nothing in reserve to fix a screw up. Of course, if I am landing in a field there will probably be damage anyway. But, I'll stick to 50K, flare, and hold it off until it won't fly anymore. Touch down speeds should be similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 The CTLS only hours to 35, and the new ones to 30, so not all the numbers for " full flap" landings are going to match up. For 30 the listed Vs is 40 on my CTLS if you use the 1.2 multiplier, you end up with 48kts. Going to 35 doesn't make a lot of difference my LS stalls at 38 or 39 IAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 I think the difference in pitch attitude is enough different between 15 and 30 degrees that I would want to practice both. If you are not allowed to land at more than 15 degrees, one would hope you are allowed to practice slow flight and various maneuvers at all flap settings at altitude. Do some "hard deck" type landings at 1000 or 1500 AGL to get a feel for how 30 and 40 feel in a landing configuration. A poor substitute but perhaps better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 You should learn to land at all flap settings. We start with 15 but as our students progress in their ability we continue to 30 and 35 flap landings. The CT handles great at the higher flap setting , landings are a blast as long as conditions are favorable. The main thing is to learn when full flap landings are acceptable and when a lower flap setting should be used. Doing a full flap landing the first time by yourself during an emer is not the place to learn it. They are doing you a dis-service if your not allowed to practice short field approaches with full flaps as part of your training when conditions allow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 Flying into Oshkosh you will typically land on either runway 36L or 36R. 36r is a taxiway. More typical is Rwy. 27. While the controllers are the best in the business they are reluctant to change the runways in use once they start the day. I have landed on 27 with a 5 knot tail wind one year, a 15 knot crosswind another year, and 8 gusting 15 last year as a storm approached.I flew thru the rain at Ripon and knew it was gonna be fun when I got to the airport. If you can't land on within 5-10ft of your dot forget about flying into Oshkosh. When landing on 27 they want you in close. If you go out over the lake on your turn from downwind to base they will call you on it. So you have to start your descent midfield and be turning down low by the time you get over the approach end of 22. This is no place for crisp turns from downwind to base to final. You start your turn and keep in it until your over the runway. Oh yeah, don't try that 42 knot stall landing. They want you to keep it moving. Again they will call you out. I don't know how many times I have heard Cessna keep your speed up till touchdown, Cub keep it flying all the way down to the green dot, So long story short. Bring your "A" game or drive. It is always a rush flying in, knowing you have traffic in front of you, in back of you and sometimes coming in from other arrival areas. I CAN'T WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 What Eric said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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