Strong crosswind landing video CTSW

[Runtoeat]

FWIW, I'm in the "retract flaps on rollout camp". By the way Jim, I enjoyed your post, especially the part about giving a flight review to the "old crusty geezers".

[S3flyer]

A powered approach that is high may need power reduced, flaps and a slip. Be sure to not put the nose down to "aim" at the touchdown point. That will only add speed which increases lift which will make the problem worse.

I haven't been able to fly much in the last couple months and my landings have been a bit inconsistent. I recently went out with stiff (for me) crosswinds of 15-18kts varying from 10 degrees headwind to 10 degrees tailwind. T31 has trees close to the east side of the runway which cause some challenges once one gets to the treetops. Anyway, I misjudged most of my approaches and needed to add power. Power-added landings generally resulted in more float than I wanted or even some ballooning. I attributed it to lack of practice.

 

After reading Jim's post, I'm certain that I was 'aiming' at my original touchdown point instead of adjusted to a potential new target given increased power. Thanks, Jim!

[Mike Koerner]

I am also firmly in the camp that favors flaps up on touchdown. I have two reasons: 1) Our aircraft have a very light wing loading; and 2) The angle of incidence of our wing is high relative to most general aviation aircraft.

In support of the latter observation, when I touch down at minimum speed my nose is not near as high as it is in a Cessna 172. Similarly, the plane takes off on its own at just above stall speed; I don’t have to pull back on the stick at all. In other words the wing is in a flying attitude with all the wheels on the ground.

Although I am sure that there are performance or other considerations which justify this configuration, it has a negative impact on ground handling. It would be preferable for an aircraft to make a sudden and sharp transition from weight-on-wheels to weight-on-wings, and vice versa. During the transition we are susceptible to bounced landings, premature or regained flight at unsustainable speeds due to gusts, and most importantly, a lack of lateral control while ostensibly on the ground in crosswind conditions. In this later case you may find yourself bouncing from main to main like a tiddlywink as you head off the side of the runway. Hence the oft stated admonition to continue flying the plane until it’s parked.

I pull my flaps all the way up as soon as the wheels touch down and don’t drop them again until I’m aligned with a runway for takeoff.

Disclaimers:

1) I am not a flight instructor and none of this conjecture should be interpreted as instruction or recommendations.

2) My aircraft is a CT2K. The later, short wing models may have substantially different geometries and flight characteristics.

3) Although I also fly an aircraft with retractable gear, its actuation is manual. There is no way in the world I can get the two confused.

Mike Koerner

[Jim Meade]

 

 

I'm having the issue of getting my approaches just right without adding power base to final or on final and as a result getting over the numbers with too much speed. I end up having to wait it out and use up more runway than I should. I think it stems from a paranoia of getting flat at any point during the approach, even if I'm carrying too much speed.

Would it help if you flew a smaller pattern and/or chose an aiming and touchdown point well down a long runway? With a smaller pattern and using your present pitch and power settings, you wouldn't likely land short but if you did you would be on the runway. Doing a few of those may help you judge your pattern size.

 

All of us benefit from flying as consistent a pattern as we can. That minimizes the variables in the pattern, so if you change one thing you can see what it did. Or, if you do have to change altitude, speed or size, you have a chance of knowing what to expect and how to adjust.

[FastEddieB]

 

 

I'm having the issue of getting my approaches just right without adding power base to final or on final and as a result getting over the numbers with too much speed.

 

From that description, it's hard for me to discern exactly what you mean.

 

Though definitely interrelated, it's best for now to divorce airspeed and power in your mind.

 

Though it opens a hoary old can of worms, I want my students controlling airspeed with pitch and approach angle with power. To reinforce that idea, I like Jim's idea of finding a long runway and choosing a point on it well down the runway as your aim point. I might further suggest doing a whole bunch of these with power back to idle abeam the aim point, and then playing with the pattern to see what it takes to begin the flare right at the "numbers" - your aim point. Later, you can add power back into your approaches if you want, but in my experience the less the better, and being able to make consistent power off patterns ultimately makes it easier by removing one variable (power).

 

Good luck, and don't be discouraged. As two recent incidents may show us, even highly experienced pilots get it wrong from time to time.

[FastEddieB]

Check out the first landing in this video:

 

 

I misjudge a long final to a long runway (easy to do) and have to add in a bunch of power towards the end to make the numbers. But if you watch the airspeed (upper left, sitting on about 60k), I don't let it change much with the power application. Its subtle, but I must increase the pitch slightly to keep my target airspeed in spite of the increased power.

 

In the second landing back at Copperhill, its my more normal power off final from my standard pattern - MUCH easier to accomplish.

[FastEddieB]

Just two quick points before the dog walk...

 

1) In my opinion, any normal "glide path", at around 3º, is way too shallow for a single engine light plane. Any engine problem will result in an off airport landing, so no need to be that shallow - I'd rather be high and figuring out how to get down!

 

2) I'd drop the Dynon rate of descent from my scan. Not the sort of thing I've ever worried about in a landing sequence, nor ever had my students even consider. One less thing to worry about!

[Ian]

........2) I'd drop the Dynon rate of descent from my scan. Not the sort of thing I've ever worried about in a landing sequence, nor ever had my students even consider. One less thing to worry about!

 

Absolutely - maintain the airspeed you want with the stick, keep the ASI in the scan then ensure the aiming point is staying in the same position in the windscreen by adjusting the power.

 

Elevator controls airspeed, throttle controls rate of descent!!!!!

[FlyingMonkey]

On approach, especially short final, my scan is airspeed...runway...airspeed...runway...airspeed...runway until just before the roundout, then it's runway only. Except for airspeed I find I can get all the info needed from my Mk I eyeball sensor.

[Jim Meade]

Your numbers sound to me like you're flying a huge, fast pattern.

Always remember the wind in the pattern. If the wind is from your right rear on downwind, it will drift you toward the runway and thus make your base leg shorter, so you have to compensate by flying a bit wider or crabbing out on downwind, as you learned doing ground reference maneuvers.

 

Although the wind is a variable in itself, one of the ways to address inconsistencies in the pattern is to fly a lot of them doing the same thing every time and only changing one thing, such as when you turn base, or when you add flaps, or how much power you carry. Reducing the variables means it's easier to see what your adjustment did for you and thus what part it plays in the pattern.

 

When you get a lot of experience, you'll realize that the main object is to arrive at the touchdown point in the configuration and airspeed you want and anything up till then should be done to facilitate that. But - don't change several things at once until you are experienced.

 

 

[Jim Meade]

On approach, especially short final, my scan is airspeed...runway...airspeed...runway...airspeed...runway until just before the roundout, then it's runway only. Except for airspeed I find I can get all the info needed from my Mk I eyeball sensor.

With primary students, I always made several approaches and landings with a towel over the panel so they could see nothing - only what was outside. They were amazed that they could land. Teaching night landings, I would make them land with only runway lights, no landing light and no panel lights. Most did as well or better than when they had the sky lit up.

I don't agree with constantly scanning airspeed on final, especially short final. Speed indicators are wind sound, engine sound, motion and, of course, the color of your passenger. Green may mean too fast. Red may mean too slow.

Seriously, I think as you gain experience you'll rely less on moving your vision into the cockpit on final.

[Roger Lee]

I agree, don't get so locked in on numbers and it does sound like a little too fast and or too large a pattern. Fly the plane not the gauges. Just use the gauges for a cross reference and guide.

[FlyingMonkey]

With primary students, I always made several approaches and landings with a towel over the panel so they could see nothing - only what was outside. They were amazed that they could land. Teaching night landings, I would make them land with only runway lights, no landing light and no panel lights. Most did as well or better than when they had the sky lit up.

I don't agree with constantly scanning airspeed on final, especially short final. Speed indicators are wind sound, engine sound, motion and, of course, the color of your passenger. Green may mean too fast. Red may mean too slow.

Seriously, I think as you gain experience you'll rely less on moving your vision into the cockpit on final.

 

Yeah, when I was training my instructor played "guess the airspeed" on approach, covering the ASI and having me fly the whole pattern down to short final, using sight picture only to judge speed. My approaches were always within 5kt of book speeds, it's not that hard.

 

I might have misspoken, I didn't mean to say I pay equal attention to the runway and the ASI. It's more like watching out the windshield with occasional glances at the ASI. My main point was that I don't really look at any other instruments at that time.

[Ed Cesnalis]

...I fly the pattern with 0 flaps and 4,500 RPM. Abeam the numbers, I reduce power to 3,000 RPM while maintaining pattern altitude and when below 80 knots, add 15 degrees of flaps which I maintain for the duration. Simultaneous to adding flaps, I pitch for a 500 fpm rate of decent...

 

 

That would be fast for me and I would slow it down with this single adjustment. I would begin slowing by retarding my throttle on downwind so that I arrived abeam the numbers at 80kts.

 

If you extend your downwind trying to slow to flap speed while maintaining TPA you are making your pattern big.

[coppercity]

We teach our students to be 0 flap 4500rpm on the 45 into the downwind leg. 3800rpm on downwind with 75kts by midfield. Flaps to 15deg prior to the abeam point so the descent can start abeam, 500fpm, 60kts and around 2800rpm. On final we plan on crossing the numbers at 55kts.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Eric,

 

About what I do, although I do so much practice with odd ball landings I'm not sure what normal is any more.

[Ed Cesnalis]

... I'm usually too fast on short final. Mid to mostly high 60s maybe? ... In any event, I know these issues start earlier in the pattern, too big, too fast, too steep resulting in the need to add power and pitch, etc.

 

That sounds a little confused, too fast shouldn't result in a need to add power and pitch. The mindset that I use is to 'trim for speed' in other words I like to approach at 55kts so at some point early enough in my approach, I trim for 55kts and don't use back or forward pressure and that allows the trim tab to maintain 55. There is no tendency to go faster and slower.

[Duane Jefts]

This thread could go on for a long time. There are lots of different opinions on how to approach and land.

 

Just keep it simple.

 

Pick out your intended spot of landing and visualize your glide path to that spot. If your at idle and your too high on final then widen your pattern the next time.

 

You should never be fast on final. Fly your pre-planned airspeeds and DO NOT deviate from it - then use your throttle to correct to your visualized glide path. As someone mentioned earlier - your throttle is your elevator button - that makes you go up or down as you add it in or take it out but maintain your airspeed as you move the throttle.

 

Glance at the airspeed - focus on your glide path and intended spot of landing grasshopper.

[GlennM]

Fooling around with the throttle, flaps, and slipping are part of the error set, not part of the skill set.

 

That is the fun of flying!

[Ed Cesnalis]

Seven,

 

Your doing a good job of sorting thru the responses.

 

You are also right that pitch and power adjustments are called for but because you are ending up to fast why not simplify to power adjustments only so that your trim speed can remain a constant speed? Then you can rely on the configuration to control your speed and the throttle to control your touchdown point.

 

You despise the trim wheel? The answer to that is to trim for your approach speed, early and then allow the trim to control the speed all the way to round out.

[Roger Lee]

Loosen it up by lessening the tension.

Most pitch trim wheels move fairly easy.

[Ed Cesnalis]

The purpose of trimming is to relieve pressure om the stick, 'trim at your own perill'? If you trim to relieve pressure where is the peril?

 

 

Playing around with trim while in the pattern and getting ready to turn each leg and adjust throttle, altitude, flaps, and banking is enough work. Leave the trim out of it.

 

Why not leave the throttle, altitude and flaps fixed? You do have to bank and coordinate but why adjust throttle, altitude and flaps? I set those things abeam and just coast in.

 

Where is the peril in trimming?

 

 

Trim is for cruising, and even then you don't want to use it much for short hops unless you are tired and want to tradeoff flying yourself for some relief on the stick and rudder.

 

Do you have a link or reference for this? I always trim why is that a bad idea?

[sandpiper]

"TRIM AT YOUR OWN PERIL ON LANDINGS" and "LEAVE THE TRIM OUT OF IT"

" is poor advice and simply wrong. The trim is there for a reason, use it.

 

Your work load will be significantly reduced if you trim the plane such that it will hold the speed you want without elevator pressure. Then you can pay more attention to your other tasks.

 

Many new pilots are reluctant to mess with trim but they get over it with experience. About the only thing I don't use the trim for is the flare.

[Ian]

7JD I hope you are able to distinguish those who speak good sense on here.

Some comments on using the trimmer are frankly amazing to me!

Of course you should use the trimmer, after putting down flap there will be a sizeable attitude change, to maintain airspeed you will naturally adjust the stick, if you don't trim that off you'll be fighting it all the way down the approach.

As regards the speeds you are looking for, take your instructors advice and read the POH - if the two differ then ask your instructor why?

[FlyingMonkey]

Trim at your own peril on landings. You want the aircraft trim neutral so you can reproduce your landings. Playing around with trim while in the pattern and getting ready to turn each leg and adjust throttle, altitude, flaps, and banking is enough work. Leave the trim out of it.

 

Ridiculous.