Strong crosswind landing video CTSW

[FastEddieB]

I use the trim constantly and virtually subconsciously all the way around the pattern, right up until I begin the roundout at about 40'.

 

From there, I want to feel the back pressure required in the flare. I think trimming during the flare would mask the control pressure feedback I want in the flare. It also adds one more thing to futz with in a phase of flight where I have my hands full with the basics.

 

There may be planes that are SO nose heavy* that a huge amount of pull is required that might benefit from trimming during the flare, but unless the plane had electric trim controlled from the stick/yoke, I still can't see reaching down to manipulate a trim wheel while actually landing.

 

Into speculation mode, I've wondered elsewhere if the recent 737 nose first landing crash may have been trim related. If out of trim it may take a second or two to realize you have to pull much harder than expected, and in that short time the nose can touch first. In time, I guess we'll know.

 

 

*like a Cessna 210 with two heavy front seat occupants.

 

[Jim Meade]

Trim is for all the time. Whenever you change power and pitch you are a candidate for a trim change.

 

One of the things I'd mention to my students is to trust their eyes. When you walk up to a pool table to take a shot, you automatically line up to create certain angles. You are pretty good at this. When in the pattern and you see a trend, such as the aiming point moving away from you, trust your assessment and go ahead and make a control input if appropriate. (Keep the wind and other factors in mind.) In other words, don't fall in love on short final. By that I mean don't find a configuration you like and then refuse to change it when conditions change.

 

As we all know, wind direction tends to shift as much as 45° CW with a couple of thousand feet of altitude. And, wind likes to get bumpy when it has to go around things. So, you just turned final at 500' and are set up for the sweetest stabilized approach ever. 400', perfect. 300' maybe a hint of drift, but still looking good. 200' whoa! why is the running going over there? Uh, maybe because the wind (predictably) shifted? So, the airplane should be "in hand" all the time, but if one gets complacent one snaps out at the first hint of the drift at 300'. Put the airplane on the centerline and do whatever it takes (within the bounds of safety and good sense) to keep it there all the way down. Now, since we didn't fall victim to the wind shift trap but always sensed and immediately adjusted for the wind, we're on center line at 50' and huh!? why are we bouncing around? Uh, maybe because the wind is blowing around that hangar or those trees? Can you predict mechanical turbulence? I hope so. We know before that little gust hits us that we're going to have to "lean" into the controls a tad the millisecond we sense the little gust.

 

So. Your eyes are good. In VFR, trust them. They are telling you a lot and telling it to you very early. In cruise, you can wallow around an no big deal but in the pattern, and especially on final, take the airplane in hand and at the very earliest onset of deviation from your desired path take smooth, small, coordinated actions. On a gusty day, you may be very, very active on final. I would rather see a student overcontrol (by that I don't mean huge control inputs but I mean many - almost constant appropriate control inputs) as needed on final.

 

The second you think you are too fast, too high, too close/wide, too anything in the pattern, make an appropriate adjustment and don't let it continue or get worse. You fix your problems up high where they are little rather than have to deal with them down low where it may take a bigger adjustment.

[sandpiper]

Trim is for all the time. Whenever you change power and pitch you are a candidate for a trim change.

 

One of the things I'd mention to my students is to trust their eyes. When you walk up to a pool table to take a shot, you automatically line up to create certain angles. You are pretty good at this. When in the pattern and you see a trend, such as the aiming point moving away from you, trust your assessment and go ahead and make a control input if appropriate. (Keep the wind and other factors in mind.) In other words, don't fall in love on short final. By that I mean don't find a configuration you like and then refuse to change it when conditions change.

 

Jim - good explanation of what I have meant several times on this forum when I say "fly the plane".

[Ed Cesnalis]

7JD is struggling to arrive on short final without being fast. At the risk of getting flamed, censored, banned, bombed, attacked, shot down, shunned or corrected, what about closing the throttle and using the flaps?

 

In that configuration (30°) you need 20 degrees nose down ( drooped wing tip level ) just to maintain 55kts! High lift, high drag configurations are the way to land!

[sandpiper]

7JD is struggling to arrive on short final without being fast. At the risk of getting flamed, censored, banned, bombed, attacked, shot down, shunned or corrected, what about closing the throttle and using the flaps?

 

In that configuration (30°) you need 20 degrees nose down ( drooped wing tip level ) just to maintain 55kts! High lift, high drag configurations are the way to land!

 

Right on!!

[FastEddieB]

At the risk of getting flamed, censored, banned, bombed, attacked, shot down, shunned or corrected, what about closing the throttle and using the flaps?

 

Of course, I concur.

 

Many here put forth that more flaps = more difficult.

 

I'm not sure that's a given.

 

For me, having learned from the beginning that full flaps was the norm, they've never seemed particularly difficult.

 

Maybe a CT with 40° is a beast, and too difficult for normal operations or beginning pilots. Never having landed one, I can't say.

 

But for the planes I have flown, full flap landings have never been a problem - conditions permitting, of course.

[Ed Cesnalis]

..Maybe a CT with 40° is a beast, and too difficult for normal operations or beginning pilots. Never having landed one, I can't say...

 

Even if you save 40° for rare occasions 30° works very well for 'full flap landings' and at that setting the beast becomes a pussy-cat. 15° is far too clean, it is a take-off configuration yet everyone avoids 40° by going to 15°.

 

CTs are demanding to fly well and to land. Landing with 15° or less all but eliminates pitch changes at the cost of more speed.

 

Today's teaching methods develop pilots that find it more difficult land with full flaps. I believe that it is harder to teach but not harder for a pilot that used full flaps from the beginning to do.

 

I admire the Brittish CT pilots and their short field ops, seems like real flying.

[FastEddieB]

 

I admire the Brittish CT pilots and their short field ops, seems like real flying.

 

And the Indonesian one!

[sandpiper]

Flaps 40 is not a beast. Just requires training and experience. Probably not where you want to start new pilots.

 

Tom Dunham from the old FD West delivered my plane and started me on flaps 30. I didn't even know this was supposed to be a problem until I started paying too much attention to some forum comments. That was years ago and I quickly went back to my basics. Problem solved.

[GravityKnight]

First time landing downwind today. Tower had me going with the wind for the first few landings before they switched around (wind was dancing around for a while there). At one point it was a 13 knot tailwind. That was an experience. The obvious of dealing with a much longer roll due to high ground speed isn't a concern on this long runway, but the plane is definitely a hand full with fairly strong varying tailwinds!! I'm glad for the experience but I sure was glad when they finally turned me around and pointed me the right way down the strip!

[Jim Meade]

Don't hesitate to ask tower for a better runway if you are not comfortable or your plane doesn't handle the tailwind well. All they can say is no. Indeed, it is good that you have the experience. Just saying don't take it if it isn't right for you.

[Roger Lee]

If you tell a tower that it isn't safe or it is dangerous for you with a particular wind they need to give you one that will help alleviate the unsafe condition. If they are busy they may tell you to circle a few minutes, but eventually they must give you a runway. They can not put you purposefully in danger and force you to land on a particular runway once you declared to them that you believe it too dangerous and or unsafe for your plane. That would make them liable. They are there to help control and separate aircraft not tell you how to fly your plane. I have done this several times when a tower lagged behind switching runways from a tail wind situation to the opposite runway that would give a headwind. I have never been denied if you phrase it right. They may clear the pattern for a few minutes, but that's no big deal. I have landed with bad tailwinds, but I would advise to stay away from them if you have another option at hand.

 

That's just flying smart. I let a tower lead me down the primrose path many many years ago and it cost me a gear leg on another very light plane and I swore then and there they would never do that again. Most towers are accommodating if you give them the info and a good reason. They don't want to have to fill out all that paperwork either.

[WmInce]

. . . "If you tell a tower that it isn't safe or it is dangerous for you with a particular wind they need to give you one that will help alleviate the unsafe condition. If they are busy they may tell you to circle a few minutes, but eventually they must give you a runway. . . . . Most towers are accommodating if you give them the info and a good reason. They don't want to have to fill out all that paperwork either." . . .

 

It has been my experience, that it depends on the airport.

 

After I requested a runway change, well before entering the pattern, I actually had a controller tell me, "if the operation is beyond your limitations, we recommend you divert."

 

There is much more to that story than space allows here, but 10 minutes after we landed, a B-757 landed and blew tires on the downwind side. It was during a severe crosswind operation, but not exceeding the prescribed limits in the operators manuals. That airport was Detroit Metro, daytime, under VMC.

[Roger Lee]

They may suggest that, but they have to accommodate you. Don't let a controller bully you. Just remind them the FAA doesn't recommend anyone land in a tailwind and that puts you and all the other pilots at risk especially if there is a runway that has a better wind option. They can not put you purposefully in a high risk situation after you have advised them differently. The liability would be horrendous if you had an incident and my guess the controller would loose his/her job after the investigation. It would all be on tape. Controllers may say one thing, but that's just that controller trying to put you off. Just insist and if you really have an issue report them. Some controllers may have a God complex, but I assure you they can be reported and you can insist they do not put you in a high risk situation when a good option is available. I learned this right from my tower guys. The controllers are there to assist the pilots not tell them or demand they land in dangerous situations.

 

Be polite up front and make it a request and if necessary be firm and use the key words i.e. dangerous, or against FAA standards and ask him if he is telling you how to fly. The only places that may have some teeth in a divert may be a class "B" since they are usually always busy. I would bet most class C and B airports would not land planes in a 13+ tailwind when the reciprocal runway is a direct headwind. Our airport has an 8 knot limitation to swap runways and will always do it upon request.

[Ed Cesnalis]

...If you end up in a fuel emergency, the controller is REQUIRED to get you the runway and heading YOU need and want.

 

Do you have a link or a reference?

 

Who is the 'tower guy' and what role does he play? You are providing a lot of advice on how to deal with ATC, what is the source of your info?

 

When Roger provides such advice we assume the info comes from his decades of personal experience. Many members here provide a link to the source of info, often an FAR or a FAA doc.

 

We need to know the source of your abundant advice in order to judge its value.

 

Thanks

[Roger Lee]

For me 33 years of flying lots of different things. Everything from Ultralights (13 different models) , Gyros (3 models), helicopters (4 models) and other fixed wing and over the past ten years being involved in the more detailed behind the scenes rules and regs. Not always because I wanted to. I basically just ask too many questions of management. I think they usually just say I talk too much. Not to mention for me I have done many of these things and been told by the upper management powers to be in classes and real experiences. Like others some good experiences and some not so good.

That's all I got.

 

The bottom line is I still learn from everyone else every day and happy to admit it. Life isn't static so keeping up in our changing world is a challenge and is what makes it fun for me.

 

So teach me some more!

[WmInce]

For me 33 years of flying lots of different things. Everything from Ultralights (13 different models) , Gyros (3 models), helicopters (4 models) and other fixed wing and over the past ten years being involved in the more detailed behind the scenes rules and regs. Not always because I wanted to. I basically just ask too many questions of management. I think they usually just say I talk too much. Not to mention for me I have done many of these things and been told by the upper management powers to be in classes and real experiences. Like others some good experiences and some not so good.

That's all I got.

 

The bottom line is I still learn from everyone else every day and happy to admit it. Life isn't static so keeping up in our changing world is a challenge and is what makes it fun for me.

 

So teach me some more!

 

Roger, based upon your posts and resourcefulness to the Flight Design community, your experience does not surprise me.

Your dedication is appreciated here. Thank you.

 

So . . . teach us some more!

[FlyingMonkey]

I did my first 30° landing on my own yesterday (had practiced 40° with instructor previously) at a 55kt approach speed. I carried a little power into the roundout, and it wanted to drift more side-to-side, but it was slower and gave me a lot of time to correct. I'm going to try some more like that but power off and see if I want to make that my default config.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Will 30 be landing flaps and 15°approach flaps? I like 30°for approach and landing. I think my method is typical:

• downwind slow to 80kts
  
• abeam close throttle, deploy 15°, hold nose level
  
• 62kts ( takes about 5 seconds ) 30° drooped wing tip to level
  
• trim for approach speed
  

[sandpiper]

I did my first 30° landing on my own yesterday (had practiced 40° with instructor previously) at a 55kt approach speed. I carried a little power into the roundout, and it wanted to drift more side-to-side, but it was slower and gave me a lot of time to correct. I'm going to try some more like that but power off and see if I want to make that my default config.

 

But wasn't this dangerous? Did you live to tell about it ((read in sarcastically amazed tone). :wacko: OOPS! you must be OK, you posted.

 

Of my 800 or so CT landings, about half are 30 degrees or more. Great satisfaction when done right.

 

My method is like CT's only I might deploy 15 earlier so I have 62K next to touchdown point. Depends on the mood of the day.

 

You're gonna love this plane!

[FlyingMonkey]

Will 30 be landing flaps and 15°approach flaps? I like 30°for approach and landing. I think my method is typical:

• downwind slow to 80kts
  
• abeam close throttle, deploy 15°, hold nose level
  
• 62kts ( takes about 5 seconds ) 30° drooped wing tip to level
  
• trim for approach speed
  

 

 

That's pretty much it. Except I can't really trim for approach speed (55kt) because I run out of pitch trim authority, and have to keep a little aft stick. I like your rule of thumb on leveling the droop tip on the horizon to get the 30° pitch angle correct, I'm going to try it!

[Ed Cesnalis]

I know you don't do it backwards in real approaches but you say it backwards.

 

If you run out of nose down trim and can't trim for 55kts you have to hold forward pressure not back pressure. The fact that the speed creeps up on you says that you hold too much forward pressure.

 

I adjusted my trim so I can trim for 55kts at 30° and that permits nice steep turns with no back pressure so I know I'm not loading the wing. A shallow turn just feels wrong in my CTSW and with the steep turn I can see again in just a few seconds.

[FlyingMonkey]

But wasn't this dangerous? Did you live to tell about it ((read in sarcastically amazed tone). :wacko: OOPS! you must be OK, you posted.

 

Of my 800 or so CT landings, about half are 30 degrees or more. Great satisfaction when done right.

 

My method is like CT's only I might deploy 15 earlier so I have 62K next to touchdown point. Depends on the mood of the day.

 

You're gonna love this plane!

 

'Twas a harrowing tale of danger and adventure, to be sure!

 

I already love it. I don't feel like I'm flying it really well yet, and that is making me want to fly more to master it!

 

BTW, another observation: My instructor's CTSW tends to get hot in climbs, so he goes to -6 ASAP on takeoff. I found if I do that I'm going over 100 knots by the first third of downwind, and it takes forever to slow down to 78kt for flaps...staying at 0° in the pattern works much better for me since my airplane has no heat issues, I never got above 220° CHT, and that was after eight circuits and a long taxi. Most of the time I was at 190-200° on an 87°F day.

[sandpiper]

Mine will trim to approach hands off with flaps 30.

[FlyingMonkey]

I know you don't do it backwards in real approaches but you say it backwards.

 

If you run out of nose down trim and can't trim for 55kts you have to hold forward pressure not back pressure. The fact that the speed creeps up on you says that you hold too much forward pressure.

 

I adjusted my trim so I can trim for 55kts at 30° and that permits nice steep turns with no back pressure so I know I'm not loading the wing. A shallow turn just feels wrong in my CTSW and with the steep turn I can see again in just a few seconds.

 

Hmm...now I am confused. I roll the trim wheel all the way to the rear, so the pin is at the back stop. That is full nose *up* trim. In that trim condition the airplane almost holds 55kt, but not quite, so I hold a tad bit of aft stick to keep it there. Are we saying the same thing or doing completely opposite techniques?? Of course you are power off and mine was with a little power left in.