Pros and cons changing to E-LSA

[Al Downs]

What impact is there when changing to E-LSA. I think that after a 16 hour course one can do more maintenance. Does it affect rental and training? Why would someone do or not change? Are there any long range effects such as plane value?

[S3flyer]

An ELSA cannot be used for rental or training.

[FlyingMonkey]

If you have a note on your plane, most finance companies will not allow the change.

[FlyingMonkey]

An ELSA cannot be used for rental or training.

 

For training others. You can still be trained in your own ELSA.

[FastEddieB]

Al,

 

Nothing is required to work on an E-LSA.

 

The 16-hour course is to do the annual condition inspections.

 

Other threads on this - give me a call if you want to discuss.

 

And Dave is right, no rental or instruction, other than you can still get instruction in your own plane.

[Tom Baker]

You might be able to do training with a LODA, but I'm not shure that you will be able to get one for a SLSA to ELSA conversion. They are mostly for ELSA converted from fat ultralights that were doing flight training before sport pilot came into effect.

[FlyingMonkey]

You might be able to do training with a LODA, but I'm not shure that you will be able to get one for a SLSA to ELSA conversion. They are mostly for ELSA converted from fat ultralights that were doing flight training before sport pilot came into effect.

 

Some E-AB airplanes also get LODAs for training, so that they can provide primary and transition training in type. It would be very hard to justify this for an LSA where SLSA examples suitable for training exist.

[Jim]

Could you use your elsa to train if no rent was charged? Example being training a family member/

[Jim Meade]

I have to say that one of the hidden benefits of changing my CTSW from SLSA to ELSA was the peace of mind that I would not be held hostage by an A&P when it came time to an annual condition inspection. Getting it scheduled. Having it sit while the A&P works on someone else's plane. Disagreements over whether maintenance is required or not. A&P unfamiliarity with LSA rules, along with the relative scarcity of good LSA mechanics. Estimates that escalate when the A&P "discovers" new "deficiencies". As the number of A&Ps dwindles, the ones left who will work on an LSA become more rare.

Now, I consult an A&P when I get into something I'm not as comfortable with as I'd like, but he doesn't have to sign off and is much easier to deal with on a 'consultation" basis than on a retained basis.

 

With an ELSA you have much more latitude in changing out items. You don't have to worry nearly as much that your lights, radio, tires, battery and so forth meet the manufacturer's and FAA's requirements. Many of the alterations mentioned on this site are a little questionable when done to an SLSA - not nearly so much problem with an ELSA.

 

Given my druthers, any airplane I own in the future will be ELSA.

 

 

[Jim Meade]

Could you use your elsa to train if no rent was charged? Example being training a family member/

 

I"m not an expert, but I doubt it. I think the thing to do would be to sell the family member a share so they were training in "their own" airplane.

[Rich]

It will decrease the value when and if you try to sell, since your doing your own maintenance on the aircraft without the need for a sign off.

 

Going from S-LSA to E-LSA is not hard to do but going back is the problem. You'd need the aircraft manufacturers approval and that is where the problem lies.

They couldn't be certain that all maintenance performed was in accordance with accepted practices and therefore probably wouldn't agreee to the change.

 

If they did, you'd have a lot of paper work to do and hoops to jump through.

[FastEddieB]

It will decrease the value when and if you try to sell, since your doing your own maintenance on the aircraft without the need for a sign off.

 

Maybe.

 

But it may actually be a selling point for some.

 

Hard to quantify any loss in value - the data set is awfully small from which to draw conclusions.

 

Going from S-LSA to E-LSA is not hard to do but going back is the problem.

 

For all practical purposes, it's a one way street. So be sure it's what you want to do.

 

In my case there is absolutely no question the benefits completely eclipse any theoretical drawbacks, for essentially the reasons Jim just gave.

[Al Downs]

As witnessed in my post about Sport Pilot training underhood or goggles, it is somewhat difficult to interpret the rules. The following from the regs seems to say training is allowed if that is true does anyone know about renting. I did see somewhere that E-LSA can be rented but can't find it now.

 

§ 91.327

Aircraft having a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category for compensation or hire except—

<a name="a_1"> (1) To tow a glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with § 91.309 of this chapter; or

(2) To conduct flight training.

[Farmer]

All benefits not as valuable as the medical requirement is negetitive, for some. I hold a current DOT CDL A medical for any truck/bus/crane out there, yet afraid to take anoither class three for fear of possible loss of LSA exeemption. The CDL standards are higher than the class three, but with FAA anything can happen in the process. Therefore my point is that going to E-LSA has risk for those who cannot predict their medical future, like me.

 

Have a excellent day

 

Farmer

[Al Downs]

I found this on the AOPA website but no other details.

 

Can I use a special light sport aircraft (SLSA) for flight training and rental?

According to 14 CFR 91.327, you may, for compensation or hire, operate an SLSA to conduct flight training. You may also rent an SLSA. To me this seems to indicate you can use for training and rental. Am I not seeing it correctly?

[FastEddieB]

Al,

 

Clearly you can use an S-LSA as you describe.

 

But not an E-LSA, so far as I know.

 

I'm sure someone can find a reference.

 

Good EAA stuff here, apparently: http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmfaqs.asp?topicid=11

[Tom Baker]

All benefits not as valuable as the medical requirement is negetitive, for some. I hold a current DOT CDL A medical for any truck/bus/crane out there, yet afraid to take anoither class three for fear of possible loss of LSA exeemption. The CDL standards are higher than the class three, but with FAA anything can happen in the process. Therefore my point is that going to E-LSA has risk for those who cannot predict their medical future, like me.

 

Have a excellent day

 

Farmer

 

From a medical standpoint a ELSA and SLSA are the same for the pilot.

[Tom Baker]

91.319 (e) covers that an ELSA can not be used for compensation or hire.

[Al Downs]

Still not clear to me Tom. That section is talking about fat ultralights. I called local FSDO and they can't give me an answer. They are researching it and will get back to me. I will post the answer when I get it.

[Anticept]

S-LSA is "special-airworthiness light sport aircraft" and is issued to manufacturers after they have a proven E-LSA model. S-LSAs may be used for flight training and rental.

 

E-LSA is "experimental light sport aircraft", and is an experimental. NO commercial or for hire operation what-so-ever may be performed in an E-LSA. Mind you, receiving flight training in your own E-LSA is not considered commercial by the FAA, even if the instructor is paid.

 

Also note that in this context, commercial or for hire operation refers to ANY form of compensation, including flight training and rental.

 

You CAN lend your experimental to a friend so he/she can receive flight instruction using it or fly somewhere with it, but you cannot receive any compensation whatsoever for it. They can supply their own fuel, as long as it is for their own use, because you are not being compensated.

[Tom Baker]

from 91.319

(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to—

(1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309; or

(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.

 

21.191

(i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft that—

(1) Has not been issued a U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate and does not meet the provisions of §103.1 of this chapter. An experimental certificate will not be issued under this paragraph for these aircraft after January 31, 2008;

(2) Has been assembled—

(i) From an aircraft kit for which the applicant can provide the information required by §21.193(e); and

(ii) In accordance with manufacturer's assembly instructions that meet an applicable consensus standard; or

(3) Has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under §21.190.

 

I made bold where it says the SLSA converted to a ELSA can not be used for commercial purposes. In red italics I marked the exception where a fat ultrlight can be used.

[Tom Baker]

S-LSA is "special-airworthiness light sport aircraft" and is issued to manufacturers after they have a proven E-LSA model. S-LSAs may be used for flight training and rental.

 

E-LSA is "experimental light sport aircraft", and is an experimental. NO commercial or for hire operation what-so-ever may be performed in an E-LSA. Mind you, receiving flight training in your own E-LSA is not considered commercial by the FAA, even if the instructor is paid.

 

Also note that in this context, commercial or for hire operation refers to ANY form of compensation, including flight training and rental.

 

You CAN lend your experimental to a friend so he/she can receive flight instruction using it or fly somewhere with it, but you cannot receive any compensation whatsoever for it. They can supply their own fuel, as long as it is for their own use, because you are not being compensated.

 

See my last post. You can use a ELSA for commercial purposes if you have a LODA.

[Anticept]

Not anymore.

See my last post. You can use a ELSA for commercial purposes if you have a LODA.

 

This practice is strongly discouraged by the FAA now, and not worth mentioning. It's extremely hard to receive a LODA for an E-LSA, and was meant only to help in the transition and adoption of LSA aircraft in areas that do not have S-LSAs available. The moment an S-LSA becomes available in a region, it's impossible to then get a LODA. There's S-LSAs almost everywhere now.

 

In fact, that is what this provision was related to:

 

-->

§91.319(e)(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.

<--

 

The LODA is goverened here:

 

-->

§91.319

 

(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.

 

(1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at any time.

 

(2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the deviation requested.

<--

 

 

Also gentlemen, there's one thing I need to put out there. E-LSA is not a total free ticket to do whatever you want. There are certain major alterations that will require a DAR to inspect and re-issue the experimental certificate.

[Al Downs]

Ok, while discussing this on the phone with Fast Eddie, I got a return call from my local FSDO. Bottom line NO. The exemption they had for the fat ultralights expired in 2010 and from that point on there is no use of an E-LSA for compensation except for towing unpowered craft of certain kinds.

 

If a person wants to rent or train for compensation it cannot be done in a E-LSA. While some may interpret the rules a little different, I won't be one of them. That means I won't be stepping down from S-LSA to E-SLA. The cost savings is not worth it.

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

[FastEddieB]

91.319 (e) covers that an ELSA can not be used for compensation or hire.

 

FWIW, and probably related, that is also stated in my Operating Limitations.