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Ed Cesnalis

Clearance Delivery

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Take a look at CFR 91.129, 91.130, and 91.131. Only class B says you must have an ATC clearance to operate in the airspace. It has always been my simple understanding that if you are on a clearance ATC will provide separation from other aircraft, like IFR or in class B airspace. Any other times you must provide your own separation and follow instructions for the airspace, but you are not operating under a clearance.

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From the AIM:-

d. When weather conditions permit, during the time an IFR flight is operating, it is the direct responsibility of the pilot to avoid other aircraft since VFR flights may be operating in the same area without the knowledge of ATC. Traffic clearances provide standard separation only between IFR flights.

 

"When weather conditions permit"...

 

Which means under an IFR clearance, ATC will provide separation. Under the same IFR clearance where conditions change to MVFR/VFR I'm now also responsible for looking for traffic and avoiding it if necessary.

 

If ATC calls traffic to me and I respond "I'm currently IMC" then ATC knows I can't see and avoid it. If I respond "Negative contact, looking for traffic" He knows I'm MVFR/VFR for a time.

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This may have been covered but I've yet to be chewed out for not calling out "light Sport". My clearances sound like this. N89D, Palm Beach CD--after response -- 89WD would like to pick up a VFR clearance, destination BIM on course heading 095 @ 5,500 no FF requested. then you'll get the clearance--read back--. This is an actual clearance I recently used. This is just my side of the transaction.

 

Did this just a few days ago Boise to Sheraton. Same system. Merry Christmas Everyone!

post-38-0-21497200-1387775270_thumb.jpg

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Around here I use "Flight Design" other places they will ask for an ICAO ID so I tell them "FDCT" I usually don't identify myself as Light Sport unless they start referring to me as Experimental.

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In Chattanooga you will always get a transponder code prior to airspace entry, and airport departure. If you are leaving the area and have not requested flight following you will be hearing the old "frequency changed approved squawk vfr" as soon as you leave the outer ring.

If you are leaving the area and have flight following 99 percent of the time you will probably not have to change the transponder for your entire trip.

 

Here is a link to my audio request for flight following during my flight to AirVenture

 

UPDATE CALL VIDEO

 

Departing Chattanooga Class C the radio sequence is as follows with or without a flight following request.

 

Monitor Atis

Call to clearance delivery....looking for flight following? Now is the time to request it, the strip is written and put into the system....

Call ground....you may not need to if the same controllers are multi-tasking...which they typically are....We have some of the best controllers in the US..

Call the tower at the holdshort line.

Change to departure when instructed by the tower.

 

I have found that sometimes the Airport location, your route of travel or other circumstances will dictate the radio calls required.

I am very thankful that my primary training took place at both Teteboro and Caldwell with Teteboro located in some pretty busy airspace. That initial training gave me an excellent foundation to build my radio skills.

 

 

Now let's look at Teteboro departure flying east to Montauk. If you don't get flight following its gonna be a long day as you get vectored all over the place.

Teteboro sits under the Class B which encompasses Newark, Kennedy and LaGuardia. Busy places for sure.

 

Radio Sequence east departure

 

Monitor Atis

Call up NY clearance delivery and get your squawk code.

Call to ground

Call to the tower, again at the hold short line

After departure you will change to NY Approach...

NY will monitor you until Montauk is insight....

When flying back its

Boston Departure who will hand you off to NY App

 

Radio sequence west departure no flight following

Monitor Atis

Call to ground

Call to tower

Stay under 2500ft until your outside the ring and your good to go.

 

Things get real interesting if you want to fly the Hudson River Corridor.

You can fly the route without needing to talk to anyone.

Fly under the shelf to the Tappenzie Bridge

Drop to 1000ft and fly down the west shore while announcing the reporting points

Turn before the Verrazano

And proceed north along the shore while self announcing the reporting points along the route...

 

I have made that trip over 2 dozen times and it never gets old...only busier...My only regret in all those trips is that on the early morning runs I never got a picture or video of the WTC..I watched them being built and flying by them with the sun rising from the east was truly breathtaking...I will always remember how easy it was to see the outline of the elevator shafts....

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Around here I use "Flight Design" other places they will ask for an ICAO ID so I tell them "FDCT" I usually don't identify myself as Light Sport unless they start referring to me as Experimental.

 

Is there a Reg that requires (in radio communications with ATC) reference to maker of the aircraft (Cessna, Flight Design etc...) or type of aircraft (Light Sport, Experimental, Heavy.... etc)?

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Is there a Reg that requires (in radio communications with ATC) reference to maker of the aircraft (Cessna, Flight Design etc...) or type of aircraft (Light Sport, Experimental, Heavy.... etc)?

 

Not regulatory, but here is the recommendation from the AIM:

 

3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number. When the aircraft manufacturer's name or model is stated, the prefix "N" is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.

EXAMPLE-

1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf.

2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit "Experimental" after initial contact).

 

So you have a lot of latitude. For a CT, it looks like either Light Sport (type), CT (model) or Flight Design (manufacturer) would all be fine.

 

From this section, always good to review: https://www.faa.gov/...im/aim0402.html

 

The Sky Arrow, being so uncommon, is a bit problematic. Often gets read back as Skyhawk or something else. If queried, I respond, "It's an Italian Light Sport, FAA designator SKAR". And, of course, I'm required to include the fact I'm Experimental on my first callup.

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Maybe someone else can answer this with more authority. I was taught to do it and ATC always asks if they don't know you. I think they want to have a sense of your speed for sequencing. You might think that KFAR would be a low traffic airport, but between UND flight school and traffic to and from the oil boom area in western ND, it can get quite busy. The last time I was up I returned to be fourth in the pattern and two were behind me when I landed. I have been extended, redirected, and 360ed on a regular basis.

I don't deal with clearance delivery, but the squawk is given by ground with the taxi instructions.

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So if its really about performance characteristics, Light Sport sounds like the way to go since they are all speed limited and an average controller should be familiar with that. I don't understand why "Experimental" helps them since the speed range for those can be quite large. I'm planning on visiting my airport's tower and educating them on the nice new LSA FD CTLSi hangared there.

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To me light sport is way to generic. So why not call all other planes GA as an identifier. When the controller looks for you what is he looking for? Is it a high wing or low wing? Does it fly at 70-80 knots or 120 knots? How does he find you in the identification books. I always tell them Flight Design 525AB. Most all have stuck with that and now most all know what a FD is. No controller can force you to use Light Sport, it isn't his/her place. You are supposed to tell the controller what you are, it isn't his place to tell you. If he tries just ask him to find your light sport identification in his book. Be calm, cool and collected and guide them where you want them to go.

 

p.s.

I have never had any trouble with any tower over my radioed identifier.

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I went to visit the tower here. I was curious about their operations and I dropped of a CTLS brochure with my tail number on it so yet had an idea of what it is. I am the only one they usually hear. ( I have never seen another CT at my home base.)

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I use the "Light Sport" designation with ATC. Saying "CT" is easily misunderstood, and most controllers probably have no idea what a "Flight Design" is. Using light sport gives ATC a general idea of the configuration and performance of my airplane, without them having to know anything about the model or manufacturer. I can always add "type is Flight Design CT" if they need more information.

 

I think "Light Sport" is much less generic than "Experimental", which is a preferred designation that can cover anything from a 40mph BeLite to a 250mph Lancair.

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Hi Andy,

 

You are not a CT (this is short slang) you are a Flight Design just like a Cessna or Piper. As mentioned above we are Foxtrot, delta, charlie, tango in the ICAO book.

 

Since you said many don't know what a FD is then it's time to educate them and bring them up to your level and not you down to theirs. Everyone around my part of the country now knows what an FD is, but they didn't in the beginning.

 

You can't look in any book and find experimental or GA for a specific aircraft. You can look up Lancair or Skywagon or one of the others if transmitted correctly.

As far as other designations, many at my field use RV, Lancair or Cessna.

 

You should paint a picture for the controller and it should be as complete as possible. An unfinished picture is as bad as a 2 line annual logbook label at times.

 

You are now an educator <_< with your Flight Design so educate those controllers. :)

 

SHOW NO FEAR! :D

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Class C airspace, contact required before entering. So, if you contact them and they say "standby", you have made contact and can now enter.

 

Right? Or wrong?

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Class C airspace, contact required before entering. So, if you contact them and they say "standby", you have made contact and can now enter.

 

Right? Or wrong?

 

If the controller say's in reply something like N530CT standby. You are right and continue into the airspace..I have done this many times.

 

If the controller say's in reply "aircraft calling approach standby", you have not established two way communications and can not enter the airspace....

 

 

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CTLSi - this was somewhat of a "trick" question and Chris (at least in my training and experience) is correct. I have always felt uncomfortable continuing but have done it several times over the years and have not been called on it.

 

Anyone else?

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I think this is a great thread and will be very useful to all pilots especially the new ones flying into complex airspace.

 

Here is the first of 2 scenarios.

 

You are flying south @ 5500ft from the ROME (RMG) vortac to Fulton County Brown (KFTY).

1. Who must you talk to?

2. When must you talk to them?

3. What equipment is required to land at this airport which is Class D

 

Happy Holidays

 

 

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As long as they reply with your tail number it is considered contact. Without the tail number being repeated it is not two way.

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CTLSi - this was somewhat of a "trick" question and Chris (at least in my training and experience) is correct. I have always felt uncomfortable continuing but have done it several times over the years and have not been called on it.

 

Anyone else?

 

 

See footnotes 1and 3.

 

3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. Two‐way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in Class C airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the Class C airspace ATC facility on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, radar beacon code, destination, and request Class C service. Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to preclude entering Class C airspace before two‐way radio communications are established.

 

NOTE-

1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, “(aircraft callsign) standby,” radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class C airspace.

 

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

 

3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the Class C airspace.

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