Acensor Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I'm posting this here on behalf of the seller. It's a CT I looked at an flew. Main reason I didn't buy it was my potential co-owner, who is 6 foot 7inches, was just a bit too cramped in it for a long trip and backed out.... and I can't afford to buy it on my own. I examined and flew it and had extensive conversations with the mechanic and IMO it's a 9 out of 10. Only downside is it's just over 1000 hours. That's a bit of an issue IMO because unless the new owner flies it only for personal use (never for fee or rental), or converts to experimental, in only ~445 hours it'll be due for overhaul. It is not eligabible to upgrade to 2000 hour official TBO. One owner and logs and conversations with owner and mechanic suggest it's been top notch maintained. 2006 Flight Design CTSW N906LW 1065 TTAE Autopilot w/alt hold, Ballistic parachute Garmin 496, Dynon Avionics , engine electric pre-heater, more. Custom full canopy cover included in sale. Always Hangered Asking $69,900 Last annual was completed June 24th 2013 Hobbs: 999.1 Rubber replacement was completed. July 13, 2011 Hobbs: 780.1 All Flight Design and Rotax bulletins complied with. Very well maintained. Virtually always run on non-alcohol mogas. Contact Mark Carino emcarino@me.com 206-465-2998 hangered at airstrip community east of Seattle Call or email for more pics or info. Alex P.S., Whoops. I noticed ONE of the pics I posted was not of the CT for sale... got mixed in. The offending one is the one looking through the cockpit from the outside with two guys visible off the nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Why so low. At least $72K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Great price for buyer - Not so good for current owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 What is the form 337 for? I wasn't aware that form was applicable to S-LSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think the owner made a mistake. Probably misunderstood what a 337 is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Great price for buyer - Not so good for current owners. As an outsider... ...a really nice, but 8 year old example selling for about 50% of a new model does not seem unusual. Anyway, for a Cirrus it would be typical... http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?s-type=aircraft&make=Cirrus&model=SR22&s-seq=2&s-lvl=2 These were planes that sold for north of $400k new, now listed in the $200k area. When buying new, depreciation can be the single largest "expense" - $25,000/year in the case of the Cirrus. The Light Sport market is much "thinner ", so prices are likely to be more variable, but, again, that seems like a fair price. About what did a plane like this CT sell for new in 2006? I would expect about double the asking price here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 One thing they seem to have missed is the 1,000 hour prop inspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acensor Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 One thing they seem to have missed is the 1,000 hour prop inspection. It was almost a week ago that I looked at the logs, but if I remember right I did see a prop inspection and a separate prop log book. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acensor Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Why so low. At least $72K Roger, You're making me feel sorry I didn't stir up the cash and buy it. :-( Main downsides are that it's at 1100 hours and it's TBO is 1500 not upgradable. So for many buyers it means they're looking at an expensive overhaul or complete engine replacement not far down the line. There's only a 2.5K difference between what you call the low price and what he's asking. Seller has just purchased another aircraft (needed something with with more than two seats and other reasons). Just want to pay off what he owes the bank. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 As a private owner you aren't required to do the overhaul. Just go on condition. The difference in the 1500 hr. engine and the 2000 hr. engine, besides the oil pressure reg mod, is the crankcase. The 1500 hr. case can crack when put under stress from these guys that want to overload the engine with low max cruise rpms from too course a prop pitch. This is why you need to make sure your max rpm is over 5500 rpm WOT. The newer cases aren't as susceptible, but aren't immune. $2.5K can buy a lot of hamburger, take the wife on a nice trip or give it to the kid at home and get them out of the house with a little left over to change the locks. It all looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acensor Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 As a private owner you aren't required to do the overhaul. Just go on condition. The difference in the 1500 hr. engine and the 2000 hr. engine, besides the oil pressure reg mod, is the crankcase. The 1500 hr. case can crack when put under stress from these guys that want to overload the engine with low max cruise rpms from too course a prop pitch. This is why you need to make sure your max rpm is over 5500 rpm WOT. The newer cases aren't as susceptible, but aren't immune. $2.5K can buy a lot of hamburger, take the wife on a nice trip or give it to the kid at home and get them out of the house with a little left over to change the locks. It all looks good. Hi Roger, Standing joke in my house is on one of our first dates I took my wife-to-be out to eat as Sizzler -- which on my budget at the time was "fine high end dining." So by that I could take her out to dinner several hundred time for 2.5K. Hey, a bit of hair splitting: Brian Carpenter's rule is the 912 should run at 5800RPM in level flight WOT as litmus test of prop not being pitched too high. And that's where mine is pitched. I like your 5500RPM rule better as that would let me put just a tad higher pitch on the prop than I have an squeek out a few knots more of cruise speed without getting into stupid territory. Any ideas why you and Brian differ by 300RPM. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I think they are close... he said OVER 5500... In talking with me about repitching mine soon, Roger mentioned 5600-5700. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I have my propeller pitched to limit engine rpm to 5650 @ WOT. This keeps engine speed under 5800rpm limit, should the throttle cable break. (The carbs default to WOT if the cable breaks). By controlling engine with ignition on/off, it is possible to limp home without over speeding engine. Guess we've got a little off topic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Mine is set 5700-5750 WOT at 4000ft, I could not be happier with both climb and cruise performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acensor Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I have my propeller pitched to limit engine rpm to 5650 @ WOT. This keeps engine speed under 5800rpm limit, should the throttle cable break. (The carbs default to WOT if the cable breaks). By controlling engine with ignition on/off, it is possible to limp home without over speeding engine. Guess we've got a little off topic here. Yeah, we are off the original subject.. But might as we finish up here on the prop? (Wonder if , as in the Mitsubishi electric car forum I'm in, the moderator can mover posts to a different thread?) Dick, you have IMO a relevant point about what happens if the cable brakes. Recently in our ELSA we caught throttle cable frayed to a kind off scary extent on the cockpit end. In that scenario indeed better to have the engine hauling at 5500 - 5650 . Your shutting off and on may not work. Will a 912 even start with carbs at WOT? Twice of when we had throttle inadvertently slightly open ...like maybe near what would be 3000 RPM.. while trying to start it simply wouldn't start. Nearly ran down battery before spotting problem. Added "throttle on idle to our startup checklist. Other way to limit over reving with broken throttle cable would be to turn off one mag. Should drop 100 to 200 RPM. Wonder what the fuel injected Rotax does on broken throttle cable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 A CT will go WOT if/when the friction lock on the throttle lever fails. I remember a WOT start when my CT was new so it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 A CT will go WOT if/when the friction lock on the throttle lever fails. I remember a WOT start when my CT was new so it can be done. Many planes are designed so that if mixture or throttle fails, they have the governors and controllers which are spring loaded for full power, full rich, respectively. The carbs have a spring on them that will pull the throttle to full if the line breaks. Better to have full power than no power, then switch off the ignition on final! As for big planes, well, if you manage to break all those cables or short out the multiple redundant computer systems, then some higher power really wants to see you in person! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Anticept, hadn't considered switching off one mag. This should work and would be a good thing to remember if one might see max 5800rpm with a broken throttle cable. As CT mentions, I too mistakenly started at "near" WOT when I first got my CTSW. Not sure what my BP and heart rate was but probably off the charts for a few seconds. Admin: Don't mean to hijack this thread. If there's a way to shift our comments on prop pitch to a new topic, please do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acensor Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Anticept, hadn't considered switching off one mag. This should work and would be a good thing to remember if one might see max 5800rpm with a broken throttle cable. ........ Hi Dick, Just FYI, I'm Alex (aka "acensor" here) Think you got my post on switch-off-one-mag mixed up with something Anticept posted. Expect none of us will have to deal with stuck WOT in flight. Haven't heard if one. But like I said, discovering our throttle cable frayed down to four strands says it's at least more probable than, say, congress working with efective bipartisan collaboration . Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Alex, sorry. Too many "A's" in names here. Good thought about switching off the mag. Don't believe I've heard of anyone experiencing a broken throttle cable either. But, a while ago, I got this scene in my head where the improbable happened to me and I pictured trying to manage a runaway engine screaming above the rev limit while trying to pick out a spot and land the whole time. Figured by pitching the prop and limiting engine rpm's, this would allow the engine to take care of itself and give me one less item to worry about. Assuming that the 912uls will restart under WOT, all I would need to do is work with the ignition switch to get me back over the nearest runway. I think the other point here is that 5600 to 5700 rpm is a good WOT rpm to use at the 3000 to 4000 msl altitudes I predominately fly at. It provides 120+kias speed on my CTSW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 We've never had a broken throttle cable in N566FD, but we've had plenty of worn cables. When a cable starts to fray, we keep a close eye on it (it takes a few months for a frayed cable to wear through). If there is more than a few individual strands broken, or one of strand groups is broken, it gets replaced. I have had broken cables in other aircraft, but usually stiffening of the movement of the cable is the first sign that it's breaking down and should be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 . . . "As for big planes, well, if you manage to break all those cables or short out the multiple redundant computer systems, then some higher power really wants to see you in person!" . . . Duel FADEC failure results in engine failure. Single FADEC failure reverts engine to "manual" thrust control (no autothrust capability). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 It's important that perceived redundancy has all the bases covered. This was a widely reported failure in a Diamond Twinstar which led to a modification: A pilot found his Twin Star with a dead battery, so he used a power cart to start one engine, disconnected the external power, and then started the other engine. The POH says to remove a depleted battery, charge it, and then reinstall it for engine starts. During the subsequent takeoff the battery evidently was still not fully charged. When the landing gear was retracted, system voltage dropped below 8.5 volts for a mere 0.18 milliseconds. That’s not much time, but enough to interrupt power to the engine control units (ECUs). Result: Both engines quit, the propellers went to the feather position, and the airplane settled off the end of the runway. A fix—adding a separate battery to each ECU, to ensure they remain powered to prescribed levels—was soon developed. There were no injuries in this accident, but the damage was done. Yes, this "jump start" was not approved in the POH, but how many of us might have fallen for the same trap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Good point Eddie. While not a redundancy issue, I had an experience in my CT that your story reminded me of: I was going to fly up to Franklin County from my home airport, a distance of about 32nm, following some friends in their airplanes. When I went to start the plane, the battery was dead. We jumped it off, thinking that we could let the battery charge off the engine, but if needed jump the airplane in Franklin County to get home. It turned out the battery was dead as disco, and needed to be jumped at Franklin as well. No problem. On the way home it was dusk and I was heading directly into the sun, so I turned on the landing light. That way at least somebody coming toward me would have a chance to spot me, since I was effectively blinded by sun glare. After landing in eventfully, I retracted the flaps...and nothing happened. The flaps display flashed but the flaps didn't move at all. After trying a couple more times and thinking the problem through, I had an "aha!" moment, turned off the landing light, and the flaps immediately retracted. Landing light back on, flaps would not budge. Apparently with a dead battery and the engine at idle, there was insufficient power from the alternator to power both the 80W landing light and the flap motor. This was not a problem in the pattern where rpm was higher, but well could have been. I have since changed to an 11.5W LED landing light, so this should not come up again, but it illustrates that small changes in aircraft systems can have unforeseen effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Also remember in a lot of small aircraft designs, there is not enough generator power to power the system, whick is another use of the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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