manuco Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Hello everybody on this forum! I follow your very helpful forum for months now, and it's really great! Note for administrator, I posted here hoping it's the correct place, but you can redirect the topic where you think it should be, Thx. First of all, I will present myself: My name is Emmanuel Collard, I live in Belgium (I speak french, so be indulgent for my bad english...), I learned to fly on a CT (Supralight), I loved that plane and decided to buy one. I would like to give you the entire story from the order form... till now, and to know if some people here on the forum encontered same problems, and what they think about it. I signed the order form of my CT Supralight (E-12-11-04) on November 2012..., paid the first advance imediatly and the entire bill in february (2013)! The plane had to be delivered in march 2013... after that ... nothing... absolutely nothing... and finally Flight Disign begun to drive us month after month, promising to deliver the plane on june, july, august,... november... The plane was finally available in April 2014!!!... Unbelievable! During all those problems, FD offered some options for free to make me keeping kalm, and after all proposed a bank interest on the 92000€ I gaved them for 1 year.It's not so bad for a story that lasted 18 months ... but that's not the end... From the beginning I was waiting quietly, thinking that when I had received the plane I would be so pleased that I will forget all the bad things (and the time lost), ... it's really not the case... When the aircraft came from Kamenz, a lot of things where wrong, and/or where missing! How is it possible simple things (not made by FD) like the propeller protection, winglets protections and so on where missing... Weight: The plane on the order form should be 303kg (+/- 3% so maximum 312.09 Kg), when I received it, I read on the weight and balance sheet: 318.6 Kg (I'm out of law)! One door is really difficult to close, heating system dosen't work because the knob doesn't stay in its position, and one of the wheel fairing is completely destroyed! (noticed on the delivery sheet in Kamenz, they should send a new one, one month later... no news about it!). The sticks are not in the correct positions and ailerons are not symetrical on the neutral position, an amateur would made it really better!!!, so the plane doesn't fly straight. The paint on the dashboard next to the windshield is cracked (see picture). The pitot tube is not glued in the hole, so I can pull it nearly out of the wing, and it turns in the hole... After some flights, I discovered that the landing gear fairing (between the landing gear and the body) is creased, the new landing gear (in fiberglass) is really smoother and more comfortable but makes the fairing between the landing gear and the body craking (I only made kiss landing, never had any hard ones! (and the plane has only 16 hours of flight). Two weeks ago I also discovered that I haven't got any light on the rudder, on the stab nor on the end of the body, quite strange... And always so many difficulties to have informations or explanations ( don't even think about a solution) from FD!!!! You know, when I decided to purchase a microlight, I did it just like choosing my car, I read a lot, took a lot of informations, and choose the best... Flight Design is one of the biggest microlight maker, it's not cheap but the quality has a price... So I ordered it. BUT, when I purchased my Porsche (which is really more sophisticated and complicated to produce) for nearly the same price than my plane, I received it in time, with everything I purchased, I only paid it on the delivery (not one year before!!!) and everything works!!! Flight design took my money, makes me waiting for 18 months and when I received the aircraft it's just like it was build in a hurry.What is going wrong with Flight Design? Now I'm really disgusted from them, they really take customers for idiots and I'm fed up about them, I think I was, till now really patient and gentle, but it's time to have solutions for everything within the next days. Last thing, if it was a normal market, when I received the plane, I had to refuse it!!! But everything was paid!!!! I didn't had the choice, I had to take it, hoping that they didn't made more critical mistakes during the building process, I'm going to make a real in-depth expertise of the aircraft and take the necessary decisions... So you, who live in the usa (the biggest market for FD), or anywhere else, did you also encontered same problems, I know that your importer is making a big job spreading multiple maintenance points everywhere in the US and perhaps has more power to force FD to be correct, just in time and reactive than here in europe? Here in Europe it seems that we doesn't have a normal market with a normal planes maker... It's a little long, hope that I wasn't too boring but I'm quite lost now and don't know what to do. I'll try to send the pictures of the plane, the landing gear and so on. Best regards and hope some reactions, EC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 The airplane weighs 700lb (318.6kg)...that is actually quite light for a CT. Very few if any factory delivered airplanes ever meet the weights on the spec sheets. My CTSW was delivered similar to yours, with minimal equipment. It weighed 735lb (334kg) as delivered. My understanding is that the Superlight has some lighter weight panels and structure, so that is probably the difference. What is the maximum gross weight on the airplane, 600kg? I'm sorry for all the quality control issues, I bought mine used so I don't know if that is common or not. But that is the reason you have a factory warranty. Point out the defects and insist that the factory dealer fix them! You have to be assertive and your own advocate on these kinds of things. I'm sure if you can get all of these small issues sorted out (and they do sound like easily fixable issues), you will be very pleased with your airplane. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Hi MrMorden, Thank you for your reply, the MTOW (legaly in Belgium) is 472.5kg, the structural gross weight is 600kg (but legaly microlights here should have a maximum empty weight of 308kg). I will try to fix all the problems with FD... but they doesn't move... wait and see. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Manuco, are you speaking with FD Germany, or your local dealer? You should be using your local dealer when possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Hello Anticept, I tried both. Of course that's my local dealer who is in front of the line, and he makes a real good job, he transfers all the mails he sends to FD (from the begining) but FD seems they don't care. I also tried to speak with FD Germany, but they systematically respond that I have to contact my local dealer (the snake eating his tail)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Manuco, There's contracts and controls in place, and FD Germany isn't supposed to be involved in local affairs until they are invited by the local dealer. I'm not going to defend either one, but do know that it can muddy the waters if both your dealer and FD Germany are not on the same page. Your local dealer is supposed to honor the warranty, and FD Germany gives them support. You need to tell your dealer to get the problems on the plane fixed. It's their problem to deal with FD Germany, not yours. If you really believe they've stepped over the line, it might be time to get a lawyer involved. You don't have to file a lawsuit, just simply ask your lawyer to act on your behalf, and their presence will probably see results a lot quicker. "Speak softly, and carry a big stick" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Agree with Anticept. BTW, most of those cosmetic issues look to me like shipping damage. Things probably got jostled around in the container when they shipped. They should be easy to fix, and the dealer should be jumping on them and then sending the bill for repairs to FD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Anticept, Yes there are contracts and contols in place at the Flight Design factory, things seems to be clear for everybody... but no real solution, my local dealer is ready to change what is needed on the plane, but FD doesn't send the spare parts nor the missings pieces! I agree with you and I'm planing an action with my lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Agree with Anticept. BTW, most of those cosmetic issues look to me like shipping damage. Things probably got jostled around in the container when they shipped. They should be easy to fix, and the dealer should be jumping on them and then sending the bill for repairs to FD. There is no container shipping between Germany and Belgium, the plane came in flight from Germany, and most of the things where noticed before the transfer flight to Belgium or during the transfer flight from Germany. As I wrote here above everything would be right if they send the spare parts... but after 50 days there is no real response and no proposal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 It would have been better if you'd seen the problems and refused delivery. You are kind of at the mercy of the dealer and FD, but I think you can get them to act faster. Maybe just mentioning that you are going to engage an attorney to get things moving would be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 I'll try and keep you informed. BTW does anybody, in the forum, had the same trouble with the new landing gear (seems to be smoother than the fairing between the main L-G and the body of the plane)? It's the same landing gear than on the new ctls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 FD Germany is known to be a little tough to deal with sometimes. That I cannot argue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Emmanuel, sorry to hear of your problems - ultimately your last resort is to demand that they either fix the list of issues or refund your money as the aircraft is not fit for purpose. European consumer law is fairly explicit on where responsibility lies. If I were you (and a similar thing happened to me with my new aeroplane - a catalogue of small - and not so small issues) - so I wrote them all down and sent the letter to the dealer I had bought it from giving a timescale in which the issues had to be fixed (and under the law that must be reasonable), but stating that I reserved the right to return the aircraft to them and demand repayment in full, if necessary going to court to obtain a judgement. That worked and everything got fixed, though I should say that at all times I kept in good relations with the dealer's representative and there was never any disagreement (other than a broken undercariage leg that they claimed was a hard landing but eventually their own engineer acknowledged was a manufacturing defect) that all the faults were real and needed addressing. Bonne chance mon ami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 I bought my CTSW new in 2007. It was delivered to my house by the dealers CFI who stayed with me a couple of days to give me the 5 hours of dual that was part of the purchase price. The plane was in the dealers stock 300 miles away so wait time from order to delivery was minimal. There were a couple of minor issues that the CFI, who was also an A&P, fixed on the spot. The plane, at 750 pounds empty, was heavier than I expected but that seems to be the trend. The 2014 models have grown to 830 pounds. There have been many improvements and options over the years that mine doesn't have. In the USA, I have never heard of anyone receiving a plane with the defects and problems you have had. And, I am very particular. Sure, most have some problems but nothing like what you are experiencing. I am sure FD will get it all fixed but it should never have been delivered like it was. Your english is far better than my french so no apologies needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Ian and sandpiper, Thanks a lot for your answers and for sharing your experiences. I'll try to go further, and to force FD to solve everything, but you can believe me that they are not prompt to give the solution... and it seems the only thing I have to do is waiting... it is the same thing from the beginning. As mentioned above, I think the only way to have everything fixed is to take a lawyer and go to the next step... it.s really a pity!!! What a waste of time!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Don't Forget to give me some news about the new fiberglass landing gear, does anybody experienced some cracks on the fairing between the hull and the landing gear (see pictures on the first post)? Many thx for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Cracks in that area usually mean a fairly hard or stiff landing and the leg flexed and the fairing didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Fairings are finicky. Every composite plane is unique, and the fairings don't always fit properly. Sometimes the fairings need to be trimmed a bit, as there may be a lot of pressure on one side. It could also mean hard landings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Emmanuel, re the pitot tube, you say that it just pulls out of the wing, that is correct, it is not glued in so don't worry about that. Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Cracks in that area usually mean a fairly hard or stiff landing and the leg flexed and the fairing didn't.Hello Roger Lee,I really agree with you, and this kind of cracks should occur during a hard landing... But I never had one, it's not a training plane, and have only 16hours.The CT I rent during my training had an other landing gear (zycral?) it was a lot of harder and less comfortable during taxi... but there was never had any troubles (and it was only a training plane). Here the new one is really great but it seems that the fairing is made in a too hard composite material, and also the complex form (really nice) doesn't allow flexibility of the fairing. As mentioned by Anticept, the fairing should be trimmed to let more space between it and the landgear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Emmanuel, re the pitot tube, you say that it just pulls out of the wing, that is correct, it is not glued in so don't worry about that. Cheers Ian Quite amazing but if it's normal the problem is solved! Why FD doesn't reply like this??? It would be so easier...Thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 They aren't meant to be glued in, because one of the maintenance practices (cleaning the pitot static system) requires its removal. You should push it back in until It fits snugly in the opening, and make sure the small hole and big hole line up vertically to the ground (which is not perpendicular to the wing due to the dihedral). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuco Posted May 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Hi everybody, Again, many thanks for your answers and constructive discussions. Now it seems that Flight Design moves a little, they stay in touch with our local dealer to solve the problems. The customer care is speaking about me as customer that "has made so much noise worldwide"... so, many, many thanks to your forum because this was the only way for me to be understood by Flight Design, it seems that questions, remarks and problems become much louder once they cross the atlantic ocean... So many thanks for your help and I will inform you about the way all that story will end (I hope...) Best regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 .......it seems that questions, remarks and problems become much louder once they cross the atlantic ocean... And the English Channel - lol!! Glad to hear you are making progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Glad that we loudmouth Americans could help, just by being ourselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.