Tom Baker Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 Quoting Charlie tango: > >"I didn't mean to offend, mostly I was saying that I normally land with full flaps and I endorse that method. I wasn't advising you, I"m not familiar with what you teach. I might guess that you teach 15 for normal landings hence the interest in additional warning." No offense taken, I'm just trying to keep the subject focused on the feelers. We also teach 30 knot landings as an experience, but at grass fields so that if the tail bumps or drops to the ground, there's no appreciable damage. For soft field landings, because of this increased chance of dragging the tail, we use grass fields. I personally experienced a tail tap while flying with a friend who was PIC of my plane at the time. The tail just bounced off and had a little green skidmark from the grass, but no damage occurred. In fact, I felt the tail bump, but he didn't even realize it, it was that soft and quiet. I'm not worried about tail bumps on soft fields. That's exactly the purpose, warning, not protection. Thanks for the idea for spring steel, I wasn't sure yet how I was going to do this. I bet I could put a chattering device on it too so that as it drags, it amplifies the noise even in grass. As for the modification, that's why I contacted Dave at FDUSA. This actually caught his attention, he's very interested in what I come up with. Notice I said soft field take offs, not landings. When doing simulated versions of these it is easy to strike the tail, unless you are ready for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted June 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 We like to do the real thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony & Rose Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 How about 'the first soft-field takeoff' when the stick is pulled into their lap??? Believe me, you can get the tail on the ground in the first two seconds and drag a fair distance before you get it under control. We added a skate-blade wheel to our fin. The lo is on file with FDUSA should you have an interest... I for one have a hard time understanding how you could/would ever instruct that would allow a student to EVER get into the nose high attitude required for a landing tail strike. If your nose is that high; get it out of town... In my style, even with 40 degree, high rate of sink into a soft field my nose will not exceed 5 degrees on round out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted June 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 I for one have a hard time understanding how you could/would ever instruct that would allow a student to EVER get into the nose high attitude required for a landing tail strike. Student pilots sometimes act unpredictably, or react incorrectly, to unexpected stimuli. 99.9% of the time an instructor can react to avert disaster, but it's that unpredictability that can lead to mistakes. Also, what about student solos? CTs perform significantly different when the instructor jumps out, which is why we encourage students to go around if it doesn't feel right on their supervised solos, but it's still not 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 even with 40 degree, high rate of sink into a soft field my nose will not exceed 5 degrees on round out.... That's what I was saying above Tony. If you use landing flaps you can't even come close to touching the tail in a CTSW unless you are way screwed up. When I first got my CT I decided that a level attitude with closed throttle and flaps is a stall attitude. I have to get my nose a little higher to avoid contacting the nose wheel first. Anticept has a great record keeping students from bending the CTs but such methods and the rule of primacy mean the pilots will be landing with take-off flaps for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Hi Ed, You won't strike at 30-40 because you come in so slow and stall land. If you come in with some extra speed and pull back hard enough or a little too quick it can touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Hi Ed, You won't strike at 30-40 because you come in so slow and stall land. If you come in with some extra speed and pull back hard enough or a little too quick it can touch. Hey Roger, Sure you can over-rotate when you are high enough to miss your mains, but that's what I meant by 'unless you are way screwed up', at that point you have lost control of your pitch attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Hey Roger, Sure you can over-rotate when you are high enough to miss your mains, but that's what I meant by 'unless you are way screwed up', at that point you have lost control of your pitch attitude. The same can be said with 0 or 15 flaps. It won't happen unless your way screwed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Does anybody know what the pitch attitude is, in degrees, when the tail fin will contact the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 As stated before, anyone with a photo or side view and a protractor should be able to figure it out pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 So I checked the angle of my CTLS equipped with tundra tires with the tail touching the hanger floor, then checked a CTSW with small tires the same way. Results..... CTLS tundra tail touch--11.7 deg CTSW small wheel tail touch--11.5 deg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 So I checked the angle of my CTLS equipped with tundra tires with the tail touching the hanger floor, then checked a CTSW with small tires the same way. Results..... CTLS tundra tail touch--11.7 deg CTSW small wheel tail touch--11.5 deg Thank you Eric. So . . . if I just limit my touchdown pitch attitude to no more than say . . 10 degrees . . on my attitude indicator . . that should keep me from having a tail strike. Anybody concur? Question for CT: With your full flap, stall, landing technique, what would you say is your max touchdown pitch attitude during landing? Thanks for any and all feedback guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Question for CT: With your full flap, stall, landing technique, what would you say is your max touchdown pitch attitude during landing? As I said above, a level attitude seems like stall, I think I use about 5°. I have tundra tires so 11.5° probably isn't where I would contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Out of curiosity, I'm going to check my Sky Arrow next time I'm at the hangar. Mine balances so that if you put the tail on the ground, it stays there. That, plus the propeller level/protractor I gave should make it trivially easy. As an aside, about the only time I've been careful to limit pitch angle on landings is in a Cirrus with partial or no flaps. In most planes, most times, the elevator is designed to run out of authority before the tail can hit in any normal flare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Thank you Eric. So . . . if I just limit my touchdown pitch attitude to no more than say . . 10 degrees . . on my attitude indicator . . that should keep me from having a tail strike. Anybody concur? I think that would be fine, but it seems like you'd know you were WAY nose high long before 10°. Probably more than 6° would seem like a lot from the cockpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Thank you Eric. So . . . if I just limit my touchdown pitch attitude to no more than say . . 10 degrees . . on my attitude indicator . . that should keep me from having a tail strike. Anybody concur? Question for CT: With your full flap, stall, landing technique, what would you say is your max touchdown pitch attitude during landing? Thanks for any and all feedback guys. When do you level your AI? From his video's Andy (Mr. Morden) indicates nose down when cruising. I level mine when cruising and wouldn't expect precision when landing with flaps. I suspect that in a landing configuration and behind the power curve you can't get the nose up 10° Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 When do you level your AI? From his video's Andy (Mr. Morden) indicates nose down when cruising. I level mine when cruising and wouldn't expect precision when landing with flaps. I suspect that in a landing configuration and behind the power curve you can't get the nose up 10° Mine shows level on the ground, it was set that way by somebody before I got it. I will probably level it in flight soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 I will probably level it in flight soon. It might be saving on gas from going downhill all the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 I think that would be fine, but it seems like you'd know you were WAY nose high long before 10°. Probably more than 6° would seem like a lot from the cockpit. I agree. Just as a reference point, to keep from having tail strikes, I think a max pitch attitude value for landing (or else a mandatory go-around!) may be very helpful, especially for pilots who are unfamiliar with the CT and those that are doing transition training. Manufacturers of large aircraft always publish a max pitch attitude where the tail will contact the runway. I have always found that very helpful . . . providing a good idea on where the tail is, in relation to making contact. If the pitch attitude came close to the max, generally, it called for a go-around. That withstanding, tail strikes still happened though, but not often. Some aircraft, like the B-727 were actually equipped with a shock absorbing strut, with an attached skid plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 It might be saving on gas from going downhill all the time? But I'm burning more because of the steeper angle needed on climb to go back up that hill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Mine shows level on the ground, it was set that way by somebody before I got it. I will probably level it in flight soon. Mine is also leveled on the the ground, via SkyView. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Mine is also leveled on the the ground, via SkyView. I don't think it really matters much, as long as you know what "level in flight" is for your airplane. I'd just prefer to have the flight path marker and horizon line coincide in level flight. Since my pitch angle rarely changes when taxiing, I don't much care about it then. BTW, I think my EFIS also needs to be leveled in roll, it shows a very slight right bank when level on the ground. I have to make sure it's not a gear geometry problem first, but I'm thinking the autopilot in smooth air will help me get these the EFIS calibrated correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Just as a reference point, to keep from having tail strikes, I think a max pitch attitude value for landing (or else a mandatory go-around!) may be very helpful, especially for pilots who are unfamiliar with the CT and those that are doing transition training. Just curious... ...do some here actually monitor the attitude indicator in the flare, so as to stop pulling at some specific pitch attitude? As a data point, I never have. For me, even glancing inside at the instruments would take my attention away from the actual landing process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 ... I'm thinking the autopilot in smooth air will help me get these the EFIS calibrated correctly. The AP will likely be quite happy flying around with a low wing or level as long as it is flying the course. You will want to perfect your rudder trim and with our canted panels your slip/skid ball is suspect. First I move my rudder left and right and find the middle with the fuel sight tubes. Next I use that to confirm my ball and then I fly with the ball in the confirmed position and confirm my wings are level. Perfect coordination is illusive in a CT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Just curious... ...do some here actually monitor the attitude indicator in the flare, so as to stop pulling at some specific pitch attitude? As a data point, I never have. For me, even glancing inside at the instruments would take my attention away from the actual landing process. Those of us with synthetic vision don't need to look outside while landing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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