Alaska 2014

[Anticept]

I don't know the wiring setup on an LSi, but does the engine *crank* when you turn the key? Remember that cranking != ignition, it just means you are turning the engine over.

 

If the engine cranks, then I'll bet it's an ECU problem. If the engine doesn't crank, then the question is, is it directly wired, or does a computer manage that too?

 

Sorry if I am taking you guys down the same path that you've already been, just curious and it's peaked the interest of my inner engineer

[Duane Jefts]

I don't know the wiring setup on an LSi, but does the engine *crank* when you turn the key? Remember that cranking != ignition, it just means you are turning the engine over.

 

If the engine cranks, then I'll bet it's an ECU problem. If the engine doesn't crank, then the question is, is it directly wired, or does a computer manage that too?

 

Sorry if I am taking you guys down the same path that you've already been, just curious and it's peaked the interest of my inner engineer

The Si has a fuse box with about 27 fuses in.  The starter switch has 12 wires going out of it.  The electrical system is completely different than the LS. We have blown fuses sometimes and think two start switches have failed during the process of troubleshooting.  Just a guess, but we think there is a short somewhere between the starter solenoid and the start switch causing the alternating failures.  Lone Mountain Aviation, Flight Design USA, and Germany has been working on this for 2.5 weeks.  We will know more tomorrow evening in Unalakleet where, as my brother puts it, is just beyond the edge of nowhere.

 

Does not crank when the fuse blows.  Does not crank when when the fuse is not blown.  Can bypass the start circuit with the solenoid and start, and can jump across the start switch and get a start.  Again multiple failures but have not located the cause yet.

[Anticept]

12 wires from the starter switch huh?

 

2 wires for left lane ECU, 2 wires for right lane ECU, 2 wires for starter relay. Trying to think of what else would run from it... I'll ask dave for the LSi wiring diagram.

 

Also I've been to alaska 3 times. Went halibut fishing out of nome, (caught fish bigger than 12 yr old me, we had to take turns reeling them in). Took a Denali tour and watched a berry eating bear leave a trail of red poop across the road in front of the bus, which absolutely ruined the V8 I was drinking. I remember a campground just outside of Seward, which was connected by a horribly rough dirt road. Was there 2 or three times I think. First time we went through an earthquake, other two times were pretty uneventful, except for those annoying biting flies that were EVERYWHERE. One of the trips we rode a twin up 18 miles north of the arctic circle, and bussed the way back along the oil pipeline. Also took a boat tour out of Valdez into Prince William sound up to the glaciers. They fished a glacial ice chunk out of the sea, which I sucked on for the rest of the boat trip (I still love ice cubes!). I remember putting salt on the glacial ice chunk because someone showed me a neat thing about them too: the ice is so heavily compressed, that the salt would cause the surface to microfissure, and it would propagate throughout the ice chunk before they fused themselves shut again. Plus it made the ice chunk taste good . On the last trip, we were driving outside of Denali National Park, and for the first time that we had ever seen that giant spire, it was clear without a cloud in the sky. Super rare sight. Of course, I liked the drives there and back too, I loved Canadians and their accents!

[Duane Jefts]

12 wires from the starter switch huh?

 

2 wires for left lane ECU, 2 wires for right lane ECU, 2 wires for starter relay. Trying to think of what else would run from it... I'll ask dave for the LSi wiring diagram.

 

Also I've been to alaska 3 times. Went halibut fishing out of nome, (caught fish bigger than 12 yr old me, we had to take turns reeling them in). Took a Denali tour and watched a berry eating bear leave a trail of red poop across the road in front of the bus, which absolutely ruined the V8 I was drinking. I remember a campground just outside of Seward, which was connected by a horribly rough dirt road. Was there 2 or three times I think. First time we went through an earthquake, other two times were pretty uneventful, except for those annoying biting flies that were EVERYWHERE. One of the trips we rode a twin up 18 miles north of the arctic circle, and bussed the way back along the oil pipeline. Also took a boat tour out of Valdez into Prince William sound up to the glaciers. They fished a glacial ice chunk out of the sea, which I sucked on for the rest of the boat trip (I still love ice cubes!). I remember putting salt on the glacial ice chunk because someone showed me a neat thing about them too: the ice is so heavily compressed, that the salt would cause the surface to microfissure, and it would propagate throughout the ice chunk before they fused themselves shut again. Plus it made the ice chunk taste good . On the last trip, we were driving outside of Denali National Park, and for the first time that we had ever seen that giant spire, it was clear without a cloud in the sky. Super rare sight. Of course, I liked the drives there and back too, I loved Canadians and their accents!

Sounds like you had a great Alaskan experience.

[Farmer]

Unalakleet?  Maybe they will meet Ariel?  What a cutie

 

 

Bad news folks Ariel has moved to California, at least for now, Hollywood I think. This is according to Nick who graduated high school with her. Usually about 9/10 students per class for entire village each year. Internet and Dish cable work very good at this home.

 

OK, yes I did stay at Brett and Davidi home last night. Wonderful, small town family that operate a B & B and an eatery. Found them through the Iditorod folks in Anchorage. Yes it is Nick's mother and father. Sun is up, sun is always up, above the clouds so I am going to explore this small town USA and wait to see if brother and tech can make it in today. Life is good. After all it is only airplane that is failed at the moment. Sorry if saga drags for some.

 

Farmer

[Anticept]

Got the diagram from Dave.

 

The starter relay is computer controlled.

 

On the diagram, grid D7 is where the key switch is located.

• 3 wires each go to Lane A and Lane B. (6 total)
• One goes to the Regulator
• Two goes to the fuse box
• One goes to ground

10 wires total.

 

I don't have a detailed diagram of the fuse box, but you did say fuses kept blowing. It *looks* like the fusebox wires form a loop. As soon as you turn the key, does the fuel pumps turn on? I wonder if that's what that loop is for.

[Duane Jefts]

Got the diagram from Dave.

 

The starter relay is computer controlled.

 

On the diagram, grid D7 is where the key switch is located.

• 3 wires each go to Lane A and Lane B. (6 total)
• One goes to the Regulator
• Two goes to the fuse box
• One goes to ground

10 wires total.

 

I don't have a detailed diagram of the fuse box, but you did say fuses kept blowing. It *looks* like the fusebox wires form a loop. As soon as you turn the key, does the fuel pumps turn on? I wonder if that's what that loop is for.

Yes 10 wires.  Fuel pumps come on when you turn the key.  FH18, a 5amp fuse is the one that blows.  Sometimes the fuse blows and sometimes it does not.  Either way it does not start.

[Anticept]

If the fuse blows, do the pumps stop?

 

Anyways, one way to really see if there is a wiring short when it's intermittent, is to use a megger. Due to the inherent danger of a megger and damaging expensive components in the airplane if used improperly, I'm not going to explain how to use one here (even most mechanics won't touch a megger, they are very powerful for sorting electrical grounding and shorting gremlins, but very dangerous tools and you MUST know what you are doing). I'm just bringing it up if you come across someone who is willing to use it.

 

I'd start to think about the possibility of a bad key switch. It's very possible to have intermittent shorts inside of them, especially with such a complicated switch. There's a lot of tiny thin pieces of metal that could break away and start jumping around inside, and since one of those wires go to ground, something might be touching the ground path and that might be what is triggering the blown fuses.

[Duane Jefts]

Found the problem. Will be able to confirm tomorrow after the repair. Bare wires rubbed by fuel lever we think. Travis needs sleep.

[WmInce]

Great news!

Like to hear the details . . . when time and space permit.

[FastEddieB]

Got the diagram from Dave.

 

The starter relay is computer controlled.

 

On the diagram, grid D7 is where the key switch is located.

 

• 3 wires each go to Lane A and Lane B. (6 total)
• One goes to the Regulator
• Two goes to the fuse box
• One goes to ground

10 wires total.

I have long given up on the notion that complexity necessarily leads to unreliability, but...

 

...DAMN that sounds complicated! At the very least making problems like yours a bear to troubleshoot.

 

Well, I really hope you found the problem. The Cirrus has long been plagued by problems with wiring and connectors. When there are just so many of them...

 

Enough to make one long for:

 

 

Anyway, good luck going forward and I hope this proves to be an isolated problem.

[Duane Jefts]

OK! Plane fixed and flight to ANC required a divert to Palmer for IFR wx but did make it to ANC later.  Long Day and we have many stories but too tired to post this evening.  You can check my spot for route and I can easily say the scenery was spectacular.  Will add a couple pictures to demonstrate. The town is of Unalakleet. The Igloo is the eatery.

 

The airplane you ask?  Simple, the fuel cutoff lever was rubbing on a bundle of wires and rubbed 3 of them bare causing intermittenly fuses to blow, or start switch to fail. When we would shut down and check continuity, it was usually good because the fuel cutoff was off and not shorting out the circuits.

 

Travis repaired and carefully replaced the wire bundle and put in a new starter switch - all is well so far.

[CT4ME]

WoooHooo!  Congrats!  Plans?

tim

[Duane Jefts]

OK, So no Oshkosh for us.  Wx backed up against the mountains east of ANC so tomorrow looks better.  Since No Oshkosh, we attended the Elmendorf  "Artic Warrior" airshow and was very impressed.  Thousands of folks and a really great show.

 

Were you able to tell which one was the B2?

 

F22 - Raptor and two Mustangs

[Doug G.]

It always surprised me that we tend to think if modern fighters as relatively small, the WWII versions asked look tiny next to them.

[Doug G.]

If you are interested in Alaska flying history. There is a book about ND native Carl Ben Eilson who pioneered cargo and mail operations, was the first to fly over the North Pole, and began what would become Alaska Airlines. Quite a story. The book is called "Polar Pilot."

[Mike Koerner]

Eielson

[WmInce]

If you are interested in Alaska flying history. There is a book about ND native Carl Ben Eilson who pioneered cargo and mail operations, was the first to fly over the North Pole, and began what would become Alaska Airlines. Quite a story. The book is called "Polar Pilot."

 

Another great book about an Alaskan flying legend is:

"Jorgy: The Life of Native Alaskan Bush Pilot and Airline Captain Holger 'Jorgy' Jorgensen."

[Duane Jefts]

Another great book about an Alaskan flying legend is:

"Jorgy: The Life of Native Alaskan Bush Pilot and Airline Captain Holger 'Jorgy' Jorgensen."

For those History Buffs, "Thousand Mile War"  is a great flying book and history lesson.  It covers WWII in Alaska.  Most folks didn't know Alaska was occupied by the Japanese during the war.  It also shows the development of aviation in Alaska and the difficulties involved.

[Farmer]

If you are interested in Alaska flying history. There is a book about ND native Carl Ben Eilson who pioneered cargo and mail operations, was the first to fly over the North Pole, and began what would become Alaska Airlines. Quite a story. The book is called "Polar Pilot."

Thanks we are parked at Merrill field in Anchorage named after Russell Merrill a 1929 pilot and hero. These type of men were real pioneers in aviation. One of the three primary reasons for this trip is to try and understand these early Western Men who arrived in Alaska and those that were here before they arrived. Also to Understand the land, those who lived here, and understand what life is like today, especially the smaller remote villages. Our delays have made our understanding better than we had thought possible. In UNK we stayed with a modern family in a modern home with dish cable and internet. The family is rooted culturally in the past and survives the 21 century very well sticking with many very traditional values. In Nome same thing, living in a private home where the son dives for gold even now.

 

It seems that in the past villages were small, no more than a couple of hundred people based upon local foods supply. They are located where fresh water and food could be found, especially during long winters. Even now they are on coastal beaches or inland on larger rivers. Thirty up to 75 miles apart, still,within walking distances or river travel. Some exception where our military built installations.

 

Much has changed with the trappers, then the whalers, then gold, then military, then oil and coal, but the people do not change as fast as world events. Therefore the help each other attitude remains. I borrowed an old truck in both Nome and Unalakeet to drive. I later said that in UNK it was the fastest ever for making 500 new friends as everyone waved every time.

 

Since most of these villages have no road connections aircraft is a must. There is a hub and spoke system with the smaller villages being served by Cessna 207's and 208's, Casa 212's, beech 1900 with a few others. The larger hub's are served by 737, dash 8 and few others. The school system in UNK owns one of the only Cessna 406 twin turbine aircraft in the USA to connect the 16 schools over a couple hundred miles in the district. Must go we will talk about by-pass mail later.

 

Farmer

 

I think we also made the trip to understand if two senior citizen were up to the challenge, in these small aircraft, verdict still out.

[WmInce]

. . . "I think we also made the trip to understand if two senior citizen were up to the challenge, in these small aircraft, verdict still out." . . .

Hats off to both of you guys.

What an adventure.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

[Doug G.]

Yeah Mike, I always forget that second "e". Thanks.

[CT4ME]

'Looks like they're heading South, taking the coastal route.  Duane is sending OKs every so often, but Larry doesn't seem to be sending SPOT tracks.  Wish them luck, the FAA cams show low clouds down that way.

[Farmer]

Low clouds!,,,, YOU BET!!! we cleared PAMR with three minutes to spare before TFR. Out over Whittier through peaks at 3000 feet then down to 300/500 feet and one mile sometimes more or LESS for next three hours. You must be careful that low without good horizon, hand flying. It was light enough with much rain rain but I could always see the water. To much coast line so some of the water crossings were about 20 miles but at that altitude you must steer between the islands. Duane was able about 2000 feet higher much of the time. I am much more comfortable low than running in scattered and broken, just personal preference.

 

The trip from PAMR to PAWA is about 345 miles and just about three hours on a good day. NOT TODAY it was four hours and 9 minutes. The most I saw in head wind was 48 Knots but Duane reported 51 Knots right on the nose. That means many times the GPS ground speed was 59/69 and I never saw more than 45 degree roll but the auto pilot had no chance today. The people that do this everyday have my utmost respect.

 

Yakutat was our first possible fuel stop and we gladly, thankfully, landed. Then in this order, tie down, restroom, lunch, fuel, weather and motel room. I pushed hard today and used about 19 gallons while Duane put in 22 gallons. When you push hard like today, N413L will use almost same fuel as N173LM. Some days four hours flying seems like ten.

 

This will be plenty enough fun for today. Even spot no longer wants to play, must have problem because website looks OK and new batteries installed. N413L ADS not working. XM weather not working, but she starts whenever asked.

 

Farmer

[Duane Jefts]

 

I am using Duane,s I pad to post this photo of the foreflight page on our trip from UNK to PAMR Friday. This is the short cut used to go through the mountain pass from UNK and others to Anchorage. This is all ho hum to those that been there but the first time through and as pilot in command with the peaks obscured and solid overcast is very interesting. Entryway way was blocked with rain but backside very open. You begin to trust your GPS to much. Just as I entered this 70 mile path my 796 froze and announced it was updating firmware. Took several minutes to complete. I will never completely trust again. I had my I Pad marked as a backup and it has been great. The Dynon is not so useful in its present configuration, hope that changes. There are several small correction to your heading for 35 miles in 1 to 2 mile wide valleys. This depends how low the ceiling is and your clearance above the ground. Then a short quick left 90 into what seems like the wrong way. This Ptarmigan pass is highest spot on route and only 2000 feet wide for us that day.. Then another left 90 turn after less than two miles into wide valley. Another right turn in 12 miles and it is all down hill from there.

 

This country was very different but nice, as soon as we made contact with Anchorage approach the area went IFR and we had to pick an alternate, Palmer this time.

 

I want to emphasize that I would never try all this without two aircraft always talking, second opinion critical. We have not filed any flight plans so far. We are not in formation but always within a couple miles most times

 

Farmer