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having Flap problems? check this out!

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On 1/25/2015 at 11:57 AM, Roger Lee said:

Then with the center panel out try flipping the flap lever to another setting and squeezing the flap board in your hands.

squeezing how Roger?  do you mean bending trying to reveal missing resin?  I don't know how you squeeze a board.

Mine needs to be checked

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Squeeze the top and bottom units together. It may even take a slight force. There have been broken solder joints and sometimes they will re-connect and then that will tell you what to look for.

Ask CT4me. His was exactly like that.

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Thank you Roger for this tip, we tried this yesterday on my 2006 CTSW that had been experiencing unexplained flap deployment issues.  As we squeezed the board flap operation became intermittent.  Interesting to see the broader maintenance issues emerge as the fleet ages, first ignition modules and now flaps.

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Have recently had a couple of episodes of flaps working on pre-takeoff but not on approach. Flaps failed to move from 0 to 15. indicator flashing. Could someone summarize the troubleshooting for this problem if it persists? Will try to gather more info. First will fly some simulated approaches at altitude and see if rpm makes a difference.     Thanks in advance. 2005 ctsw,  

Rich

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First thing. Remove the bottom center panel. You will see lots of bullet electrical connectors push and TURN each one. This has fixed a lot of intermittent flap engagement issues. If it does have a solder crack this seems to bring it to light. You can also re-program your flaps at each setting. This is easy and not complicated.

Lastly:

If these don't fix it run the flaps with the panel removed and squeeze the flap board fairly hard. We're looking for a cracked board. Squeezing it tends to make to connection better and it works without an issue until you let go.

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Rich, please let us know if your problem was low voltage or was due to one of these - bad circuit/bad relay/bad flap controler.  Thanks.

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I had similar problems on my 2008 CTSW I’m sure it’s a crack on the flaps control board on the firewall but couldn’t find it so installed a new control board about a month ago and I’ve had no problems since, I will get the original board hopefully repaired and keep as a spare.

 

Lawrence

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Hi Roger

 

Thanks for that info, looking at the board it does look like a one of the solder points is bad so I will get it re soldered and see if that cures it. My problem here is my Strip is only 300 meters although I’m now just increasing it to 500 meters if the flaps don’t come down I doubt I could land without any flaps here so I purchased a new one to be safe.

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Boy, Talk about flap problems... I am new here but have been battling flap problems for months as have the previous owner of my new acquired CT.  It is a 2007 CTSW and the flaps will work only in manual mode. It was at Champion Flyers for months and they were trying to install the retro fit kit supplied by Flight Design US to replace the old system with no luck. The flaps will not work with the retro fit kit flap board and harness installed. I have been working with Arian at FD US and he kept saying they found errors in the pinout on the schematic. I would change it to the new pinout and nothing. I was however able to get the flaps to work down but not up after reversing pin 1 and 3 on the 9 pin connector on the supplied retro fit harness which in turned reversed the polarity. With pins 1 and 3 in the original position it would just keep trying to raise the flap even though it was on the limit switch.  After reversing pins 1 and 3 they went down with no way to get them up without reversing pins 1 and 3 again or plugging in the old board and harness. Arian felt the board was bad at that point  and replaced it. It was supposedly the only one they had and was a used board when they supplied it. After returning the first used supplied retro fit board he said he had one more in stock but of course it was a used returned board but was suppose to have been checked as good.  Same thing...  They then referred me to Airtime Aviation in Tulsa and they felt the potentiometer was bad and shipped me one... Installed the pot and the exact same thing could be achieved down but not up. I have checked the flap actuator harness which is the only wiring left in the system that is not replaced with the retrofit kit and it is all good. I can install the old board and old harness back in and the flaps working perfect in manual mode up and down all the way to the limit switches.  At this point I feel I should just retro fit a reflex flap positioning system in this plane from Spruce or something...  I am posting in hopes you CT experts might have some insight to shed a little light on this problem. It appears the CTSW is no stranger to flap problems. Thanks in advance for your time reading this grammatical wreck of a post!

Regards,

Brad

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I would have to see the airplane personally to fix this.

What you describe is seeking behavior, assuming you programmed it correctly.

There is one thing I need to make you aware of. This is written in no manuals, you just need to understand the system. The potentiometer does not have stops! You must position the potentiometer so that the extreme ranges of travel do not cause it to cross the zero threshold, or it will cause the flaps to malfunction.

As for the pinouts: arian might be right. I do have a copy of the retrofit manual but I still need to see it in person to help.

If the flaps continue to try to move even once they hit the microswitch, then that's definately a miswire somewhere. The microswitches interrupt power to the flap motor relays when actuated.

Make sure that you also read the potentiometer at the board pins correctly. It acts as a voltage divider. One is positive, the other is ground, and the third wire is sense. Positive to ground should read 10k or bus voltage, positive to sense will read something in between and change as the flaps move.

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6 hours ago, Anticept said:

I would have to see the airplane personally to fix this.

What you describe is seeking behavior, assuming you programmed it correctly.

There is one thing I need to make you aware of. This is written in no manuals, you just need to understand the system. The potentiometer does not have stops! You must position the potentiometer so that the extreme ranges of travel do not cause it to cross the zero threshold, or it will cause the flaps to malfunction.

As for the pinouts: arian might be right. I do have a copy of the retrofit manual but I still need to see it in person to help.

If the flaps continue to try to move even once they hit the microswitch, then that's definately a miswire somewhere. The microswitches interrupt power to the flap motor relays when actuated.

Make sure that you also read the potentiometer at the board pins correctly. It acts as a voltage divider. One is positive, the other is ground, and the third wire is sense. Positive to ground should read 10k or bus voltage, positive to sense will read something in between and change as the flaps move.

Hi,

 Thanks for the quick replay!  The pot in question is the one mounted in the back adjusted automatic by flap position not the one on the discrete flap board. The problem is no matter what supplied pinout is used they will not work at all or only work going down. While in learn mode using the jumpers the flaps will only move down as well.  Another thing is with the new retrofit board and harness installed, the flaps will not work in manual mode either as they do with the original board and harness installed. 

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The pot that is on the flap column is what I am talking about. It is a position sensor. It acts as a voltage divider, and the board senses voltage. You are basically programming the voltage into the board when you use program mode. This voltage, when higher or lower than the target value, will move the motor in the correct direction. However, if it crosses 0, it will confuse the flap controller.

If manual mode is not functioning, then there is a pin issue. Manual mode bypasses the microcontroller and directly applies a voltage on the wire that runs out to the microswitch, and then back to the motor control relay. Basically, you are somehow putting voltage on a pin that shouldn't have it unless manual mode is set.

The wires needed for this controller to function are as follows:

2 wires for the motor - if these are reversed, the motor will run in the wrong direction when seeking a position until they hit a microswitch

3 wires for the potentiometer (feed, sense, ground) - if feed and ground are reversed, the flaps will move but never stop until a microswitch is hit because it will reverse what sense reads as the flaps move. if sense is incorrectly placed, the flap board should error.

2 wires for positive and ground for the board

3 wires for the two microswitches on the board, but 4 at the connector (ground jumper installed)

5 wires for the external programmer - not used when programmer is not connected

 

As said I would need to see it to fix this.

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17 hours ago, Anticept said:

The pot that is on the flap column is what I am talking about. It is a position sensor. It acts as a voltage divider, and the board senses voltage. You are basically programming the voltage into the board when you use program mode. This voltage, when higher or lower than the target value, will move the motor in the correct direction. However, if it crosses 0, it will confuse the flap controller.

If manual mode is not functioning, then there is a pin issue. Manual mode bypasses the microcontroller and directly applies a voltage on the wire that runs out to the microswitch, and then back to the motor control relay. Basically, you are somehow putting voltage on a pin that shouldn't have it unless manual mode is set.

The wires needed for this controller to function are as follows:

2 wires for the motor - if these are reversed, the motor will run in the wrong direction when seeking a position until they hit a microswitch

3 wires for the potentiometer (feed, sense, ground) - if feed and ground are reversed, the flaps will move but never stop until a microswitch is hit because it will reverse what sense reads as the flaps move. if sense is incorrectly placed, the flap board should error.

2 wires for positive and ground for the board

3 wires for the two microswitches on the board, but 4 at the connector (ground jumper installed)

5 wires for the external programmer - not used when programmer is not connected

 

As said I would need to see it to fix this.

Again I appreciate your time in writing this response.  I know the pot is clocked correctly based on info from Airtime, Based on the schematic supplied by flight design us the pinout is correct on the harness. After speaking with Airtime aviation, They told me they know the pinout is correct because they are the one that designed it. I have verified the flap actuator harness and the pin out is correct again based on the schematic. The first flap board supplied was version 1.5 and I could get it to move down like previous stated and would stop with switch positioning. It was a used board. The second board supplied was also a used board but will work down only intermittent and is version 1.4. I am only going to wire it based on the supplied schematic or supplied changes to the pinout from FD. My gut says that first board was probably actually good and the pinout is not correct and the second board has issues on top of a wrong pinout for this plane. It was clearly installed in a panel and removed because it showed evidence of screws tightened up on the PCB mounting holes. So it was removed after being installed for some reason.  This is driving me nuts. I really appreciate your time and sharing your knowledge. I was posting this in hopes for some magical answer I guess or some light being shed on something I am missing.  I am at the point I have to remove the equation of faulty parts being supplied because that is where my gut lies at this point. I have ordered a complete new retro fit kit from Germany and will report back soon. If that doesn't take care of it I will have to seek someone smarter than me to figure this out. I have been installing and configuring complex electronics and software for over 20 years for extremely high profile clients all over the US but this has humbled me (if the parts are actually good).  If in fact this turns out to be bad hardware I will be relieved to have this behind me but pretty scorn for the amount of time invested and trust that was extended that the parts were actually tested and were 100%  I made an agreement to purchase this plane to start instructing in it.  Have you ever ordered from Germany before? If so what kind of time is the norm. Time is closing in on me on this deal. 

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Then the next suggestion i have is to test the onboard relay. It might be stuck. See if you read a similar continuity as the other one.

Also, test the harness. Make sure there's no bleed over between the connections.

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On 9/9/2018 at 4:55 PM, SKy Pirate said:

Again I appreciate your time in writing this response.  I know the pot is clocked correctly based on info from Airtime, Based on the schematic supplied by flight design us the pinout is correct on the harness. After speaking with Airtime aviation, They told me they know the pinout is correct because they are the one that designed it. I have verified the flap actuator harness and the pin out is correct again based on the schematic. The first flap board supplied was version 1.5 and I could get it to move down like previous stated and would stop with switch positioning. It was a used board. The second board supplied was also a used board but will work down only intermittent and is version 1.4. I am only going to wire it based on the supplied schematic or supplied changes to the pinout from FD. My gut says that first board was probably actually good and the pinout is not correct and the second board has issues on top of a wrong pinout for this plane. It was clearly installed in a panel and removed because it showed evidence of screws tightened up on the PCB mounting holes. So it was removed after being installed for some reason.  This is driving me nuts. I really appreciate your time and sharing your knowledge. I was posting this in hopes for some magical answer I guess or some light being shed on something I am missing.  I am at the point I have to remove the equation of faulty parts being supplied because that is where my gut lies at this point. I have ordered a complete new retro fit kit from Germany and will report back soon. If that doesn't take care of it I will have to seek someone smarter than me to figure this out. I have been installing and configuring complex electronics and software for over 20 years for extremely high profile clients all over the US but this has humbled me (if the parts are actually good).  If in fact this turns out to be bad hardware I will be relieved to have this behind me but pretty scorn for the amount of time invested and trust that was extended that the parts were actually tested and were 100%  I made an agreement to purchase this plane to start instructing in it.  Have you ever ordered from Germany before? If so what kind of time is the norm. Time is closing in on me on this deal. 

Just a quick update... I received the new parts from Germany this morning. The new flap board would program the display mode and go in learn mode like it was suppose to and would work consistently moving the flaps down with the old retro fit harness installed so there is no doubt the other retro fit board is bad. As for the pinout... Flight Design Germany sent 3 different harness and no documentation so hopefully this means there was 3 possible pinouts for a 2007 CTSW. Just guessing on that one. I am sending an email to find out what that's about. Fingers crossed one will be correct for my application. Will report back soon. I need to get this wrapped up as I have people showing up fairly regular wanting instruction in it. Word travels fast!

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