FAA ADS-B Summit On 10-28-14

[Craig]

The issue is simply, the FAA is mandating the technology and you WILL put it in your plane or suffer a ramp check one day and lose your airworthiness certificate.

 

This is absolutely false.

[FlyingMonkey]

Not at all required in class G, E, or D airspace. You can fly coast to coast and in all 50 states, and can land at 75% of US airports without ADS-B, legally, after 2020. It's only a "mandate" inside Class A, B, C, and inside a Mode C veil.

 

I'm with Craig on this, your post is just wrong.

[Dan Kent]

It is likely prices will fall on the equipment although it is also possible prices will spike, both equipment and shop time, in a time window surrounding the adoption date. Basic supply and demand. May not be an issue for those that can avoid the regulated airspace.

For those that only want compliance, then waiting is the most prudent route. For those that see value between now and the mandate, there are several relatively low cost options to participate in the system. The cost/benefit of 6 years of reliable traffic was worth it to me.

If I'm still flying and an owner in another 5 years, then I'll upgrade to an approved system (or upgrade my current box). 6 years of life for a piece of electronics is pretty good in my book.

I agree with Dave. I went with the Dynon solution as I have their SV system and am very impressed with their equipment. Over the next 5 year much can change. I'm hoping that Dynon will come through as they usually do and will have an affordable compliant "fix" by 2020, but so far it's the best upgrade I have invested in.

[Doug G.]

Dave, is that an ADS-B in only solution? Hamburgers, do you have ADS-B out?

[Anticept]

ADSB will not be required unless you enter airspace which requires a mode C transponder, or certain other areas such as the mode C veil, per the rule entered into the Federal Register, Volume 75, Number 103. See page "30193" (listed in upper right or upper left corner). This corresponds to page 35 in PDF readers. EDIT: OR just look at §91.225

 

As for radios: radio equipment is not required on the aircraft, except where required by airspace use, or nighttime operations.

 

EDIT: Give me a moment, I am going to verify this. Something tells me the night time requirement isn't a radio thing.

 

EDIT 2: Confirmed, radios are required for night time ops, per:

 

§91.205   Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

 

[...]

 

( c ) Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph ( of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph © of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

 

So, now I am curious... what about experimental and LSA aircraft . I am willing to bet they would put a restriction on the airworthiness certificate if they didn't come with radios anyways.

 

Edit 3! Per FastEddieB and Tom Baker, I jumped a little too far and pulled that out of the instrument requirements (or rather, my ass I guess!). Radios not required as my original double-take suspected

[FastEddieB]

Anticept,

 

I just looked up FAR 91.205 because I didn't recall any requirement for radios at night.

 

Did not see any at first glance. Not among the 6 extra requirements that I see listed for night flight.

 

Might you have conflated another portion of the reg with the night requirements?

[Tom Baker]

ADSB will not be required unless you enter airspace which requires a mode C transponder, or certain other areas such as the mode C veil, per the rule entered into the Federal Register, Volume 75, Number 103. See page "30193" (listed in upper right or upper left corner). This corresponds to page 35 in PDF readers. EDIT: OR just look at §91.225

 

As for radios: radio equipment is not required on the aircraft, except where required by airspace use, or nighttime operations.

 

EDIT: Give me a moment, I am going to verify this. Something tells me the night time requirement isn't a radio thing.

 

EDIT 2: Confirmed, radios are required for night time ops, per:

 

§91.205   Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

 

[...]

 

( c ) Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph ( of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph © of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

 

So, now I am curious... what about experimental and LSA aircraft . I am willing to bet they would put a restriction on the airworthiness certificate if they didn't come with radios anyways.

You jumped down and picked up on instrument flight rules.

[Anticept]

Anticept,

 

I just looked up FAR 91.205 because I didn't recall any requirement for radios at night.

 

Did not see any at first glance. Not among the 6 extra requirements that I see listed for night flight.

 

Might you have conflated another portion of the reg with the night requirements?

 

 

You jumped down and picked up on instrument flight rules.

 

Indeed I did! I thought it looked a little strange. Scratched from my post

[S3flyer]

Dave, is that an ADS-B in only solution? Hamburgers, do you have ADS-B out?

I have ADS-B In and Out with display on my Garmin 795.

[Doug G.]

S3, what are you using for out? Is your transponder extended sqitter?

[FlyingMonkey]

No. You are wrong.  A radio is not required equipment.  The FAA doesn't check for those.  ADS-B will be required...  And incidentally, I fly with it now and EVERY airport I fly near, into and over has ADS-B coverage.  The other aircraft are visible even near non towered airports in Nevada. 

 

Say how the gear is required and the FAA hears your excuse that you NEVER fly near ADS-B coverage areas?  Or never fly near congested airspace, EVER! 

 

You are trying to tweek the mandate.  You won't win. 

 

Please read the regulations, and stop posting what you wish they said.  Let me make it easy for you, here is the FAA mandate as published.  I have bolded and put in red the airspace requirements for ADS-B.  Please direct me to the part about G, E below 10,000 feet, or D airspace.  IT IS NOT THERE.  In fact, it specifically exempts E airspace above 10,000 feet but within 2500 feet of the surface, which is all the E airspace a Sport Pilot can fly in.

 

 

 

§ 91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADSB Out equipment and use.

(a) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in Class A airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—

(1) Meets the requirements in TSO-C166b, Extended Squitter Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADSB and Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS B Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of 1090 Megahertz (MHz); and

(2) Meets the requirements of § 91.227.

( b After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft below 18,000 feet MSL and in airspace described in paragraph (d) of this section unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—

(1) Meets the requirements in—

(i) TSO-C166b; or

(ii) TSO-C154c, Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADSB Equipment Operating on the Frequency of 978 MHz;

(2) Meets the requirements of § 91.227.

© Operators with equipment installed with an approved deviation under § 21.618 of this chapter also are in compliance with this section.

(d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph ( b of this section:

(1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;

(2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.§ 91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADSB Out equipment and use.

(a) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in Class A airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—

(1) Meets the requirements in TSO-C166b, Extended Squitter Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADSB and Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS B Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of 1090 Megahertz (MHz); and

(2) Meets the requirements of § 91.227.

( b After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft below 18,000 feet MSL and in airspace described in paragraph (d) of this section unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—

(1) Meets the requirements in—

(i) TSO-C166b; or

(ii) TSO-C154c, Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADSB Equipment Operating on the Frequency of 978 MHz;

(2) Meets the requirements of § 91.227.

© Operators with equipment installed with an approved deviation under § 21.618 of this chapter also are in compliance with this section.

(d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph ( b of this section:

(1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;

(2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.

 

 

[S3flyer]

S3, what are you using for out? Is your transponder extended sqitter?

I have a 327 so going with an ES solution was somewhat cost prohibitive for what I wanted to spend.  I went with a UAT solution using the Skyguard transmitter.  For my Sting I was able to configure easily without a true 'installation'.  The vendor is working with the FAA for 2020 certification and is making minor changes based on FAA feedback.  I'll need to make it a permanent mount with an external antenna for certification.

 

Previously discussed: http://ctflier.com/index.php?/topic/1268-foreflight-and-ads-b/page-4

[Doug G.]

I have a 327 so going with an ES solution was somewhat cost prohibitive for what I wanted to spend. I went with a UAT solution using the Skyguard transmitter. For my Sting I was able to configure easily without a true 'installation'. The vendor is working with the FAA for 2020 certification and is making minor changes based on FAA feedback. I'll need to make it a permanent mount with an external antenna for certification.

 

Previously discussed: http://ctflier.com/index.php?/topic/1268-foreflight-and-ads-b/page-4

Yes, I do remember the conversation. I am using the GDL-39 as a stalling tactic until I see a good in/out solution that fits the mandate. I will have to see how much worse it is than XM for my purposes. I want to rid myself of the $500/yr. from XM - given the GDL-39 is $600. It will pay for itself in 14 mos.

[S3flyer]

I started with the GDL-39 a couple years ago and haven't regretted unplugging XM weather.  

[FastEddieB]

The ignore function works really well.

[FlyingMonkey]

You keep missing the point.  The equipment will be REQUIRED.   Just like a Mode C xpdndr is required in the same way, most aircraft have them now.  Why? Because NOONE can say they will not fly into airspace required by one.   Anyone can fly even without a license/certificate to fly, the reason we don't take that risk is simple, it's not worth getting caught without one.

 

So if a piece of equipment is required for flight in any particular airspace, it's required for all types?  By your logic a Mode C transponder is required everywhere.  Please also show me a picture of the approach certified GPS in your CT.  After all, it's required equipment for shooting a GPS IFR approach.  You hear that?  It's REQUIRED, so you must have one, right?   

 

*I'm* missing the point?!?  The quoted regs state EXACTLY when and where ADS-B is required equipment.  There would be no point in spelling out all the different areas it's required, if it's required for all areas.      

 

Here's a logic test for you:  If I say "A life preserver is required equipment for all water sports," is it required for basketball?    :huh:

 

Silly rabbit.

[FlyingMonkey]

The ignore function works really well.

 

Yeah, I'm almost there.  So far the "can't look away from a train wreck" aspect has held me, but the thrill is fading.  

[FastEddieB]

Wait...

 

I was just informing the admins that the ignore function was working really well.

 

Did you assume I was talking about someone in particular???

[Doug G.]

Hey, Burgers, do you know there are planes out there...flying right now that don't have radios? Some don't even have an electrical system. Please spend less time making comments and more asking questions and studying. You must not be too far from your first BFR. I hope they will expect you to know something.

[Tom Baker]

Hey, Burgers, do you know there are planes out there...flying right now that don't have radios? Some don't even have an electrical system. Please spend less time making comments and more asking questions and studying. You must not be too far from your first BFR. I hope they will expect you to know something.

I have thousands of hours in aircraft without radios, in fact I plan on flying one in the morning.

[FastEddieB]

I have thousands of hours in aircraft without radios, in fact I plan on flying one in the morning.

 

[Anticept]

A dwight schrute meme. Nice.

[Craig]

You keep missing the point.  The equipment will be REQUIRED.   Just like a Mode C xpdndr is required in the same way, most aircraft have them now.  Why? Because NOONE can say they will not fly into airspace required by one.   Anyone can fly even without a license/certificate to fly, the reason we don't take that risk is simple, it's not worth getting caught without one.

More stuff being made up.... is there not a BAN bat around here?  Jeez... I'm only a student pilot but I can read a regulation and understand it.  

[Jim Meade]

Good grief, guys, put him in your twit filter like I did a year ago.

[Doug G.]

OK, so here is how I will handle it. I will block him and never respond to him again. I would like it if we all could just talk around him, and not quote him. If he starts a thread ignore it. (I know that is a lot to expect, but I live in hope.) Bye Burgers.

(Sad really, when you came back I thought for a little while that you had changed.)