Neuform Propeller Overhaul

[westcoastoz]

Neuform issued a Service Bulletin (TM-10-01) on 28th April 2010 which altered the prop. inspection requirements from 500 hours/3 years to 750 Hours/ 5 years.

My prop. will be affected soon as it comes up for the 5 year check early next year. I am sure I saw on this forum somewhere that an owner had sent their prop. back to Germany for overhaul at a cost of US$1500 and was wondering if that included the shipping to and from the factory?

We have been trying for several years to convince Neuform to authorize an overhaul facility here in Australia to carry out the work so as to avoid the shipping costs (and down time for the airplane) but to date have been unsuccessful.

It would seem that the cost of overhaul plus shipping costs would go close to the price of a new propeller (even perhaps a different brand which allows overhauls to be done locally) and am wondering if anybody has done the sums on this.

 

I have a 3 bladed variable pitch Neuform propeller fitted with an electric constant speed unit and controlled by an Innovative Avionics Propeller Regulator PR1-P. I expect most props. such as Warp Drive, Airmaster, Kaspar etc. have a similar design to the Neuform (hollow shaft etc) to facilitate the connection of the constant speed unit.

 

Don’t get me wrong...I really like the Neuform propeller however having to ship to Germany for overhaul is a real hassle.

 

Any ideas?

[Roger Lee]

Howdy Westcoastoz,

 

(I see this SB from Neuform is only for the variable pitch props and won't affect us in the USA)

 

The USA doesn't have anyone here to do inspections either. The cost of the inspection and all cost right around $800. You can get a new Warp Drive for approximately $750-$800 and not have that limitation again. Many have a Warp on their plane around the world. I have a Warp on my plane and the person next to me at the field just replaced his Neuform that had cracks with a Warp and likes it. A ground adjustable Sensenich is about $2200 and a new Neuform is $2500. Sensenich may be another way to go. There has been one person here in the US that put a Sensenich on his CT and got his LOA from FD. They may be up for a fleet approval. I don't think Sensenich has a 3 blade though. I'm not totally sure what Warp or Sensenich has for constant speed props. You will have to check their websites. To me Neuform will be out of the market as people hit their time limits because they are too pricey on inspections and too isolated for the world.

 

 

p.s.

I just went to the Warp site and Sensenich site. Warp doesn't have an in flight adjustable 3 blade and Sensenich doesn't have a 3 blade at all. Since we in the US only have ground adjustable props these two props are good alternatives. I hate to say it, but you may get stuck with the Neuform inspection.

[Runtoeat]

Hi Roger. Just trying to go thru some old posts regarding the propellor. I see post by you and Jeremy and recall a post you may have done a while ago regarding modifying the Warp Drive hub to fit this to the CT's? I recall seeing a post where you or someone described doing modification to propellor hub spacers? Maybe if you have your post you could put this up here? Also, what is the TBO for our Neuforms here in the USA? After reading old posts, it looks like I will go with Warp Drive if'/when my Neuform requires inspection. Looks like a new Warp Drive costs about 1/2 the cost for just the inspection for the Neuform? And, the Neuform inspection must be done by the factory in Germany? Buying a new Warp Drive that is made in the U.S. instead of sending one's Neuform back to Germany for inspection appears to be a no-brainer.

[coppercity]

I think the inspection time for the ground adjustable Neuforms we have in the States is 1000hrs. Is that correct Roger?

[westcoastoz]

Thanks to all for your input. I will certainly be checking out the price of a new propeller before sending my Neuform back for inspection/overhaul.

Has anyone had any experience with Airmaster props? see here: http://www.propellor.com/wa320f.html They are manufactured in New Zealand.

I guess the first hurdle will be to get approval from FD.

[Roger Lee]

Hi All,

 

The inspection time is 1000 hrs. for ground adjustable props in the US.

The Warp only needs a few minor things to place it right on our planes hub. First the 6 lugs, which keep the prop from spinning on the hub or shearing off the bolts, have a shoulder on them from Neuform. A sander can take down the shoulders on the edges, but it very easy work and precise on a lath. This isn't rocket science and is very easy. It took me 20 min. to do all the lugs. Then you will need to tell Warp when you order a prop that this is for a Flight Design and needs a 1/4" thick face plate that goes on the front of our hub in front of the prop. I have already covered this with the Warp owner and he is ready and knows exactly what is needed. The face plate is $55 and the 3 blade warp is about $775. That's it, another easy project.

[acresflyer]

For what it's worth, I sent my prop back to Nueform this spring. It took 3 and 1/2 months and $1500 with shipping to get it back to USA.

[Roger Lee]

$1500 is two new Warp drive prop. Plus warp is a US company and parts or service is quick, even overnight if need be.

[westcoastoz]

For what it's worth, I sent my prop back to Nueform this spring. It took 3 and 1/2 months and $1500 with shipping to get it back to USA.

 

 

Acres....how much of the $1500 was shipping and how did you 'pack' the prop.? 3.5 months down-time seems a bit excessive also.

It would appear the best way would be to replace mine with an Airmaster however getting FD approval may be a hurdle at this point, but will certainly make enquiries. My main problem is that I only recently spent around $4000 changing from hydraulic manual pitch control to an electric CSU, so need a prop. that will be compatible with the CSU.

[acresflyer]

OZ, The cost on my prop was almost $1000 for the overhaul and I too think 3.5 months is way too long. Lockwood removed the prop and sent it to FD who sent it to Germany. Nueform sent it back directly to Lockwood. The expedited shipping and US customs fees were $500. Don't know about your case with a constant speed, But next time I am switching to a WARP.

[chanik]

There was some discussion awhile back on ctflyer about propellor options for the CT, but there seems to be scant information out there on this. So I have some questions if I manage to damage my Neuform or hit 1000hrs:

 

Is there any comparison out there on the Sensenich vs Warp vs Neuform WRT top speed and climb? Sensenich claims to be superior of course on their site and it looks like a sweet prop but does anyone have any data on it compared to how well it compares to their original Neuform?

Is there any drawback, other than more noise, with 2 blade instead of 3 (Sensenich is only 2-blade)? How much more noise is a 2-blade? Why not use a larger diameter prop if it is light enough since the blade tips will still be well under 480mph which is about where props start to get noisy and inefficient? Sensenich seems to recommend 70" but the Neuform is only 66". The 70" should be more efficient at the low speeds we fly at.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Kurt,

 

I have flown all these props and 3 on CT's. I have heard people make claims, but like anything else they never factor in the variables nor is it scientific or even at the same atmospheric conditions. The main deciding factor for us is rpm on take off or cruise. I have flown these props side by side on CT's and top speed was the same so long as rpm was the same. Don't let anyone claim they are the best thing since sliced bread or make claims of extra speed. The Neuform and Sensenich are about $2300-$2400 props. The Warp about $900 or so. The Neuform is 65" and the Warp is 66". You won't be able to go any longer as a I doubt FD would approve it. The Sensenich prop blade adjustment is a little different as it moves all 2-3 blades at once. The two blade props aren't necessarily louder, but just sound different to me. If a blade like Sensenich is thin in its cord then it would require more length to accomplish the same thing like the wide cord red two blade Neuform. Hence that may be why they would like the longer 70" blade. On a side note a 70" would give a better performance against their own 65" and under certain flight performance areas and yes you could turn it a little slower.

[Tom Baker]

Sensenich has a 3 blade propeller. There is one flying on the CTLS float plane, and it has been approved by Flight Design. From what I understand the Sensenich gave the best performance for that application. Tom

[chanik]

The sensenich must have come down as their website lists $1525 which seems pretty reasonable. I don't see the weight to compare it with the others though or how to order it below 70"

[Roger Lee]

Hi Kurt,

 

The website says they have 66"-70" for the $1500. I take it that you want the 2 blade over the 3 blade? Also you may need another part not listed on the site to fit the FD CT spinner nose cone that has a centering hole. Warp has a 1/4" plate that goes over the top of there 3 blade for the spinner axis tube to mount on. I would call FD and see what they have to say about this. There may be another part that needs to be purchased for this?

[chanik]

I don't see the three blade on sale on their site at all. They say they can trim down to 66" in the comments but it isn't an option when ordering. Sounds like I'd have to call and talk it over with them. I'm likely to switch over to E-LSA soon so won't need permission for the Sensenich from FD. I find it interresting that FD seems to prefer the Sensenich with the floats when the plane needs all the performance it can get.

[Tom Baker]

I don't see the three blade on sale on their site at all. They say they can trim down to 66" in the comments but it isn't an option when ordering. Sounds like I'd have to call and talk it over with them. I'm likely to switch over to E-LSA soon so won't need permission for the Sensenich from FD. I find it interresting that FD seems to prefer the Sensenich with the floats when the plane needs all the performance it can get.

 

I think they tried several different props and that is what give them the best performance off the water.

[wlfpckrs]

Flight Design USA in Connecticut will have its people trained to do the Neuform prop overhauls in May, I believe. The cost of the overhaul is said to be $1,000.

 

You can get a Warp Drive prop in any color you want - as long as it's black. Actually, Warp Drive told me that you can get one of their new props painted virtually any color you want for an additional $40.

[Jim]

I believe I'll buy a warpdrive just so I can use the old Neuform as a ceiling fan.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Jim,

 

Now that's funny!

 

If you pay a $1000 for the Neuform inspection you still have a 1000 hr old prop that you just paid $1K for and it has 1000 hrs. of wear and tear. I just have a heard time with that much money for an inspection. It cost that to inspect the whole plane and that takes days, It cost that much for all the hose replacement parts and all they're going to do is inspect the small hand held prop. For less money you can have a brand new zero time prop with zero wear and tear with no inspection time limit. I personally don't get it. I wish someone would come on line and tell me how it takes $1K to do this. What some have done is send your prop back overseas and put an inspected prop from someone else plane on your plane and then when your prop comes back it goes on someone else plane. They rotate them out like that for $1200.

[GlennM]

I don't see how the warp drive prop can be cheaper and have no inspection limit. It was stated the Neuform and Sensenich props are close in cost. I can understand that. I would expect similarly constructed props would be priced similarly. I have found you get what you pay for works most of the time, but it appears not in this case. Why are Warp drive props so cheap?

[Roger Lee]

There are several factors to consider in prop pricing. Different materials (makes a big difference in price), production machinery or building cost, US made vs Overseas and different profit margins and middlemen. All make claims as to why theirs is better than everyone elses. The carbon fiber Warp uses less expensive material (carbon fiber) and it is easier to work with verses different composites and structures of other props. The Warp is an easier prop to repair, too. If you needed an emergency in field repair a Warp can be fixed with baking soda and super glue. Then file of sand the repair to shape and fly home. Some types of props take longer to build and are more complicated in structure, which does not equate to a better prop, just different. Some of the GA props even for the small planes are $5K-$15K.

 

FD Germany (FD USA is on our side) should consider prop expense along with other expenses in these tough budget times. The Neuform inspection is $1000-$1200, a new Neuform is $2300, a new Sensenich is $2300 and a new Warp is $900. Warps were only certified on SW's and never on an LS and probably won't be, due to testing requirements. If you want Warps to be a fleet approval and an owner option for SW's then you might want to send a VERY NICE and POLITE email to FDUSA to support their position with FD Germany to allow Warps on SW's. They will discuss this at Sun'n Fun so it should be done ASAP.

It would be a 3 blade Warp Drive 66" square tip. (no nickel edges)

 

FD email:

fstar@rcn.com

Don't forget NICE.