Six ADS-B Myths Dispelled

[ralarcon]

Actually even garmin says the portables should not be used for critical navigation. Theres a bunch of technical backend stuff that certified gps' have that portables do not do to verify integrity of the system (i dont have the details). I'm sure they could build a portable that fits the bill, but it goes back to the FAA refusing to certify them.

 

You will not have to get rid of current equipment. you just need to install a certified GPS source and wire it to the ADS-B system. I am hoping to see a box on the market soon that had no bells and whistles other than a USB diagnostic port, and a gps reciever. That's it.

 

I know the GDL-88 is a standalone, but you are also paying for a UAT transceiver. As I understand though, if you pair it with a 330ES, you can get both UAT and 1090 ADS-B in (remember, there are two ADS-B systems, and you need both in to see all ADS-B traffic!)

 

Also, why does the FAA have UAT? If 1090 has already been around, what are they doing?

In my kind of flying , I don't just use the 796 for critical navigation I use it for all navigation, as well as looking out the window. The point is, for us Sport Pilots in CT aircraft, it is all the navigation we need.

 

Cheers

[Anticept]

In my kind of flying , I don't just use the 796 for critical navigation I use it for all navigation, as well as looking out the window. The point is, for us Sport Pilots in CT aircraft, it is all the navigation we need.

 

Cheers

 

Yes I understand that. My point was even garmin doesn't trust their portables. I am hoping that an inexpensive certified waas solution comes out.

[Jim Meade]

This discusses why there is UAT and 1090es.

 

http://flyingandtechnology.blogspot.com/2013/10/uat-or-1090es.html

 

Whether you need both to see all ADS-B traffic may be open to some discussion. If you are receiving a ground station, it is my understanding you will get everything with either system. However, if you are flying into some little airport that is under the ground station coverage and gets bigger traffic, you may not see the "other" guy. For example, you are flying your UAT equipped CTSW into Fort Dodge, IA and a CRJ is coming in. It will certainly have 1090es. If you are not picking up the ground station your UAT will not see him if I understand correctly.

 

The UAT can handle more data - maybe a good reason to have it. But, read the above URL. It's one page and you only need to read a paragraph or two on this topic.

[FastEddieB]

In my kind of flying , I don't just use the 796 for critical navigation I use it for all navigation, as well as looking out the window. The point is, for us Sport Pilots in CT aircraft, it is all the navigation we need.

 

 

This.

 

In my case its a 496, and is far more device than I had through at least 75% of my flying career.

 

Supplemented only recently with an iPad, used primarily for the sectionals - though seeing a little plane fly along on the sectional still seems a bit like magic to me!

[Anticept]

This discusses why there is UAT and 1090es.

 

http://flyingandtechnology.blogspot.com/2013/10/uat-or-1090es.html

 

Whether you need both to see all ADS-B traffic may be open to some discussion. If you are receiving a ground station, it is my understanding you will get everything with either system. However, if you are flying into some little airport that is under the ground station coverage and gets bigger traffic, you may not see the "other" guy. For example, you are flying your UAT equipped CTSW into Fort Dodge, IA and a CRJ is coming in. It will certainly have 1090es. If you are not picking up the ground station your UAT will not see him if I understand correctly.

 

The UAT can handle more data - maybe a good reason to have it. But, read the above URL. It's one page and you only need to read a paragraph or two on this topic.

 

Are you a GDL-88 Salesman?

[ralarcon]

This discusses why there is UAT and 1090es.

 

http://flyingandtechnology.blogspot.com/2013/10/uat-or-1090es.html

 

Whether you need both to see all ADS-B traffic may be open to some discussion. If you are receiving a ground station, it is my understanding you will get everything with either system. However, if you are flying into some little airport that is under the ground station coverage and gets bigger traffic, you may not see the "other" guy. For example, you are flying your UAT equipped CTSW into Fort Dodge, IA and a CRJ is coming in. It will certainly have 1090es. If you are not picking up the ground station your UAT will not see him if I understand correctly.

 

The UAT can handle more data - maybe a good reason to have it. But, read the above URL. It's one page and you only need to read a paragraph or two on this topic.

Thanks, interesting read. However it does not change my opinion. I do have XM traffic, on my Dynon . Although I find this a very useful tool I find I can avoid traffic better using my eyes and appropriate approach tactics. I do not think ADS-B will add anything useful in my case.

 

Cheers

[Anticept]

Thanks, interesting read. However it does not change my opinion. I do have XM traffic, on my Dynon . Although I find this a very useful tool I find I can avoid traffic better using my eyes and appropriate approach tactics. I do not think ADS-B will add anything useful in my case.

 

Cheers

 

I don't believe there is such a thing as XM traffic, it's too slow and too little bandwidth . It's probably receiving traffic from TIS-B . You can find out by turning off your transponder briefly as a test AWAY from busy airspace, and everything should disappear after a moment.

[ralarcon]

I don't believe there is such a thing as XM traffic, it's too slow and too little bandwidth . It's probably receiving traffic from TIS-B . You can find out by turning off your transponder briefly as a test AWAY from busy airspace, and everything should disappear after a moment.

I get traffic information , altitude and direction of travel on the Dynon, I even get an audible "Traffic" warning , if the aircraft is closer than 1 mile. I can see several targets at a time, you may be right it may be TIS, I do get XM weather on the 796. These are useful tools, though not critical.

 

Cheers

[Ed Cesnalis]

Do you have a Mode S transponder?

[coppercity]

I fly our CT and Cirrus often in the KPHX class B airspace and having traffic in the cockpit is eye opening. Its amazing how much traffic is there that you cant pick up visually even when you know where to look.

[Anticept]

So Anticept 'assumes' Garmin is selling a $2000 portable aviation GPS device and no one is expected to rely on it for navigation?  Again, show us proof of that...or get a Garmin rep to come to the board and repeat it in the way you insist...

 

I think there's a warning when you turn the unit on. It don't exist in certified installations.

 

EDIT: By the way, just because someone sells something, it doesn't mean they've taken extreme steps to ensure reliability. Certification (is supposed to) exists to torture test and make absolutely sure that someone will not encounter an unusual predicament that causes unreliability in a unit.

[ralarcon]

Do you have a Mode S transponder?

I believe I do.

[Anticept]

Here's a photo. Yes it's the "outdated" 496. Pretty sure the 796 has this too.

 

 

Pretty strong statement on the device itself to back up my claim. As said, it doesn't have such a warning on certified units. Maybe it's their round-about way of keeping the FAA off of them, maybe it's to try and insulate against lawsuits. Statement still stands, Garmin is not standing behind their portables as a reliable means of navigation according to their own pop up agreement.

 

 

I have the Garmin 796 in my cockpit, as do all other CTLSi owners.  We are all using the device for primary and often sole navigation purposes.

 

No, you aren't. Looking out the window is also a form of navigation. Your heading indicator is also a form of navigation (if the GPS says you need to go west, do you used your heading indicator or just turn until the GPS says you are going west?). The GPS is a very sophisticated piece of equipment for navigation, but unless you have a blackout in the cockpit while in instrument conditions, it's not your sole means.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I believe I do.

 

Its needed for TIS.   I have mode S and TIS displays when I'm near LA or SF or LV, ... etc

 

I have TIS traffic on my 496 and other traffic on my bigger dispaly.

[ralarcon]

Its needed for TIS.   I have mode S and TIS displays when I'm near LA or SF or LV, ... etc

 

I have TIS traffic on my 496 and other traffic on my bigger dispaly.

Thanks, that explains it !

 

Cheers

[FlyingMonkey]

 

No, you aren't. Looking out the window is also a form of navigation. Your heading indicator is also a form of navigation (if the GPS says you need to go west, do you used your heading indicator or just turn until the GPS says you are going west?). The GPS is a very sophisticated piece of equipment for navigation, but unless you have a blackout in the cockpit while in instrument conditions, it's not your sole means.

 

And looking out the window should *always* be your primary means of navigation, when flying VFR.  

[S3flyer]

This discusses why there is UAT and 1090es.

 

http://flyingandtechnology.blogspot.com/2013/10/uat-or-1090es.html

 

Whether you need both to see all ADS-B traffic may be open to some discussion. If you are receiving a ground station, it is my understanding you will get everything with either system. However, if you are flying into some little airport that is under the ground station coverage and gets bigger traffic, you may not see the "other" guy. For example, you are flying your UAT equipped CTSW into Fort Dodge, IA and a CRJ is coming in. It will certainly have 1090es. If you are not picking up the ground station your UAT will not see him if I understand correctly.

 

The UAT can handle more data - maybe a good reason to have it. But, read the above URL. It's one page and you only need to read a paragraph or two on this topic.

Jim -- most (all?) ADS-B In devices have receivers for both frequencies.

[Tom Baker]

You are an expert on the 796 and you have never seen on in operation?  You are simply wrong. How about admitting it?

Maybe you should take your own advice. Nothing he said about portable GPS's was wrong, you simple don't understand what he said. What he said was, "Actually even garmin says the portables should not be used for critical navigation." I added the bold. Note that it says critical, not primary or secondary. Critical is when the GPS is the only means of navigation, no visual referance as in IFR. The Garmin portable GPS's are not intended to be used for IFR flight.

[Doug G.]

I learned pilotage and dead reckoning as a part of my training. I thought it was a requirement.

I use my 696, backed up by my Dynon, then my D2 watch, sectional and compass. Primary is looking out the windows!

[WmInce]

I learned pilotage and dead reckoning as a part of my training. I thought it was a requirement.

I use my 696, backed up by my Dynon, then my D2 watch, sectional and compass. Primary is looking out the windows!

 

Concur totally and learned the same way (including exposure to low-frequency radio range).

That withstanding . . . it is a futile endeavor, to argue about your position, with an air traffic controller who has identified you on his/her display.

You just end up looking like an ass.

[ralarcon]

I learned pilotage and dead reckoning as a part of my training. I thought it was a requirement.

I use my 696, backed up by my Dynon, then my D2 watch, sectional and compass. Primary is looking out the windows!

Agree, in order of use:

 

1) Look out the window, first and foremost.

2) Garmin 796

3) Garmin Pilot on Galaxy S5

4) Back up Dynon GPS

5) Dead Reckoning, don't write it  down, but if I calculate at 45 Min ,I need to be seeing Lake Okeechobee out of my left window it better be there or something is  wrong

6) Don't do IMC or IFR.

7) Sectional Back up in airplane at all times.

 

 

Not gotten lost yet, with this approach.

 

Cheers

[Ed Cesnalis]

Looking out the window is primary in my scan for the purpose of collision avoidance.  Navigation is another matter, my eye can't see the winds.  If I want to fly efficiently, I primarily rely on my GPS and focus on flying a track that matches my bearing.  Back in the early 90s when we got our first GPS the interface displayed only a few numbers, no moving map.  The best technique then was to steer so that your track matched the bearing to your waypoint and its the best focus for me today with a panel that is far more advanced.

[Anticept]

You are an expert on the 796 and you have never seen on in operation? You are simply wrong. How about admitting it?

tom baker summed it up:

Maybe you should take your own advice. Nothing he said about portable GPS's was wrong, you simple don't understand what he said. What he said was, "Actually even garmin says the portables should not be used for critical navigation." I added the bold. Note that it says critical, not primary or secondary. Critical is when the GPS is the only means of navigation, no visual referance as in IFR. The Garmin portable GPS's are not intended to be used for IFR flight.

100: I've repeatedly said, they don't back their portables for critical flight, only as supplemental. It's the same thing as an iPad, foreflight does not want their software used as sole means. If you have to use them as your sole means, then it's critical. I know our portables and iPads are reliable. I even use my portable and iPad as a means of navigation. I even use my iPad in IFR. But, certified instrumentation has PROVEN their reliability under strenuous conditions. When I am doing an approach in IMC in my mooney, i use my airplane's 430 and instruments.

[S3flyer]

Page 78 of the 795/796 has a big warning block not to "rely solely" upon the device for IMC.

 

Page 3 advised not to use the Basemap for primary navigation

 

I found no warning about using sectionals for primary navigation in VFR.

[Tom Baker]

He did not say it couldn't be the primary navigation device. Almost all CT's have a Garmin portable GPS as their primary navigation device. What he did say is it can't be a critical device. A critical navigation device would be the only means of keeping you where you want to be, as in IFR flight.