Jim Meade Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 I used to caution students about trying to match rivers but especially lakes to the image on the sectional. I reminded them that in times of flood or drought, lakes could look much different than the sectional image. This is especially insidious if the area has a number of lakes and ponds or rivers. It helped if there was a particular dam which of course would not change much. Rivers in our country may be snowed over and blend into snowy fields in the winter, and in the summer they are often shielded by deciduous trees, thus camouflaging their shape. Another sometimes confusing image is the power line. Where they go through a forest they make an excellent reference point, but in an open farm field they are nearly invisible. Some of my favorites are where railroads cross 4-lane roads. Around here, those points are unique. Perhaps one lesson for students is that things don't always appear on the ground as you expect to see them per the sectional. Another is that as pointed out above, what is distinctive n Georgia may be less dependable in Iowa, so the student should always try to verify a point with several other points to corroborate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knolde Posted December 20, 2014 Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 At the risk of being a holiday (Merry Christmas) killjoy, the ADS-B In/Out dilemma looks a bit grim right now. I went to FAA through a friend who is a flight examiner and a maintenance AI with my questions. He could not answer me, so he went direct. Early this month this is what he found out. First 1 Jan 2020 is a firm date and jam ups at avionics shops means nothing. But the biggie is that if you do not have a panel mounted certified GPS you are going no where. At present there is NO/NO components system certified, period. The various companies say that they have put together ADS-B In and Out systems are likely getting ahead of themselves. According to the FAA: TAINT SO! In fact I was also told that there was some question about some of the expensive panels already in service. Supposedly an "evaluative process" will take place in the future to determined the systems, components etc. Mainly, according to my friend, the real sticking point is the accuracy of the GPS and reliability of its display. At present it appears that you cannot buy a components/Tablet system that will pass muster. I find this really depressing as I was hoping to get ahead of the power curve. So what I am going to do is simply sit back with my Garmin 496 and Sirius XM Weather and wait till things are less muddy. Dr. Ken Nolde, CTLS 840KN 600+ mostly enjoyable hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted December 20, 2014 Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 if you do not have a panel mounted certified GPS you are going no where. We probably all know what you mean, but it might be useful to say "no where that a transponder is currently required." I do most of my flying in G and E below 10K feet so don't have to have one if I'm willing to put up with those limitations. It's interesting to me that I can fly my non-electrical Champ into Class C now. I call approach from outside Class C airspace on my handheld radio and advise them "negative transponder". Locally, I've always been able to get in. I wonder if that provision will continue to be extended? Has anyone heard any discussion specifically citing that provision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted December 20, 2014 Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 I may be incorrect, but I don't think that a panel mounted GPS is necessary for ASD-B compliance in our airplanes. For example, Navworx is advertising a permanently mounted "box" that has an ASD-B compliant WAAS GPS source and the ability to interface with the ship's existing transponder and (with available wireless adapter) to display traffic and weather on a tablet device. Transponder codes are entered into the existing transponder, and the device then transmits UAT ADS-B out information using its own transmitter. It requires two antennas, one for GPS information and one for ADS-B OUT transmission on on 978 MHz. The manufacturer claims that the system is compliant with the 2020 ADS-B requirement. See http://www.navworx.com/products-ADS600-B-ADS600-BG.php Other manufacturers are advertising similar 2020-compliant IN-OUT devices (each with (i) a link to existing mode C transponders permitting single transponder code entry and (ii) wireless communication with a tablet for display of traffic and weather). Garmin and Freeflight are two such manufacturers. If I understand the 2020 requirement, the ADS-B out solution must be permanently mounted and must have a WAAS GPS source that meets FAA requirements. A panel mounted GPS is not a requirement. I am not interested in a fight or debate here. Rather, I am interested in an ongoing discussion of available and upcoming ADS-B 2020 compliant solutions that require minimal alteration of the ship's panel and have relatively low cost of installation (relative being the operative word here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted December 20, 2014 Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 Fred, the link goes to a 404 "not found" page at Navworks. Also, being "compliant" is not the same as approved by the FAA. That is where the big problem arises for our planes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted December 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 It may help with situational awareness, but the primary means for collision avoidance in VFR conditions is still looking outside the aircraft. I see far to often students and private pilots who have their head buried in the cockpit and not looking outside, because of all this new technology. There needs to be a balance, because when their head is buried inside they are having problems flying the airplane. I have been using ADS-B in/out with a Mode S xpndr since delivery of the aircraft over a year ago. Until you fly with this tool regularly it is difficult to understand how it augments situational awareness. The tool does not replace looking outside the cockpit, it gives a head-start looking for and detecting aircraft. Especially in congested airspaces. It warns long before you can see other aircraft. The other day we were flying under a class Bravo shelf toward a VFR waypoint. Another aircraft was flying directly at us 300 feet below us. ADS-B gave a clear warning, a target symbol, a direction of flight and an altitude before ATC gave us the same warning and before we could see the other aircraft attempting to cross the same VFR waypoint on its way to landing. The ADS-B predicted the EXACT path and altitude as I watched the other aircraft fly just to the right and beneath us. Without the ADS-B we would have only had the haze, the squinting distance trying to make out the other aircraft and the ATC alert (and their interpretation of the event). With the ADS-B we also had an instrument telling us what the direction and altitude was of the other aircraft. I maintained my altitude and direction...any change in either could have easily resulted in a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted December 20, 2014 Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 We all need to remember that any aircraft not equipped with a mode C transponder is invisible to ADS-B, and that is a significant number of aircraft. I even know of a twin at my field without a transponder, so it's not just little airplanes, either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted December 20, 2014 Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 Doug, try http://www.navworx.com/index.php Also, they state that their equipment is approved by the FAA and meets the 2020 mandate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted December 21, 2014 Report Share Posted December 21, 2014 That works. Two questions - 1) I believe the WAAS GPS version would be needed - min. $3800, right? 2) Any FD approval for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted December 21, 2014 Report Share Posted December 21, 2014 Doug, yes that is the cost of the unit with both IN and OUT functionality. I am not aware of FD approval for any ASD-B installation. I recently converted my CTsw to E-LSA airworthiness, so I am not constrained by FD approval. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted December 21, 2014 Report Share Posted December 21, 2014 Thanks, Fred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted December 21, 2014 Report Share Posted December 21, 2014 Here's an FAA media piece on ADS-B as of June 2014. Has info specifically addressing standard and experimental certificated airplanes, including e-lsa. http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/media/AEA%20ADS-B%20Installation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 Has FD , "actually" endorsed a particular in / out solution officially ? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted December 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 Doug, yes that is the cost of the unit with both IN and OUT functionality. I am not aware of FD approval for any ASD-B installation. I recently converted my CTsw to E-LSA airworthiness, so I am not constrained by FD approval. Fred FD offers an optional SV-ADSB-470 Dynon solution added to the Skyview option. And the Dynon Mode-SSV-XPNDR-26X xpndr. And an optional Garmin 796 non-certified WAAS GPS. The setup is not 2020 compliant from the certified GPS standpoint. The other gear is compliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 FD offers an optional SV-ADSB-470 Dynon solution added to the Skyview option. And the Dynon Mode-SSV-XPNDR-26X xpndr. And an optional Garmin 796 non-certified WAAS GPS. The setup is not 2020 compliant from the certified GPS standpoint. The other gear is compliant. Thanks for the info, but if it is not 2020 compliant , it is not worth doing, for me. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 Thanks for the info, but if it is not 2020 compliant , it is not worth doing, for me. Cheers Keep an eye on it though, because the dynon transponder is very compatible with a wide range of comm protocols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 Keep an eye on it though, because the dynon transponder is very compatible with a wide range of comm protocols. I will thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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