Jump to content
CT4ME

Low Cost ADS/B solutions

Recommended Posts

The NavWorx 600b-EXP is now $1399. It's a nice solution, but at that price the door is opening to other methods. Another problem I have is my 696 won't be able to show the ADS-B weather (free) because it was built to get its weather from the XM antenna, not RS-232 data. ADS-B traffic is fine because it always got that digitally from my GTX 330. Garmin says they're thinking about the problem, but I don't believe they will think very hard because they would like you to buy the GDL39. So maybe weather will just have to remain either XM or be gotten off a tablet via wifi.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at the SkyGuard EX ADS-B in/out.  Wireless WiFi, works with iPad and Android and connects up to 3 devices. I don't think Navworks connects to Android.  iFly GPS is compatible with SkyGuard.  Wireless squawk from exisitng Garmin Xpnder.  $1,525 for transceiver which is 978 "out" and 978 and 1090 "in".  To be 2020 compliant, ADS-B must be permanently installed.  The Skyguard is now installed in my CTSW and I am now 2020 compliant per new FAA ruling mentioned in this thread.  I opted for the AHRS unit which is $400 additional.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I decided I did not want to have to rely on any tablets or anything not installed in the panel for ADS-B in. 

 

Decided to go with the Garmin GTX 345 and Garmin Aera 660 with an Air Gizmo panel mount. Garmin was having a special if you ordered before Sept 9. The two units were normally $6695 but the special got it down to "only" $5575. In a couple of years they'll be on sale for half that. Or obsolete. 

 

Total turn key will be $8189 with the shop giving me $500 for the old GTX 327.

 

Yes, I'm still gasping from the near fatal hits :Interesting:  but it's only the kids inheritance, right?

 

If I was willing to use a tablet for traffic/weather I could have done a turn key with a Stratus transponder for $4495.

 

I know, I know, that's a lot of $ for not wanting to use a tablet. B) Easy come, easy go. :duh-1007: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi John.  I do not use a tablet.  I made a new left instrument panel and permanently mounted the iFly 740 GPS on my panel for use as a dedicated GPS for ADS-B.  This GPS is compatible with the SkyGuard and is also compatible for Adroid and iPad.  It is the same size as the Garmin 796 and takes the same AirGizmo docking mount that the 796 uses  It is hard wired to my avionics power and wirelessly connects to the SkyGuard (WiFi).  When I power up my avionics, my iFly comes up giving me all ADS-B info and AHRS. This iFly GPS is capable of running the TruTrak auto pilot but I am still using my Garmin 495 to do this.  The iFly GPS provides redundant navigation to the Garmin 495, if desired.   For triple backup, my LG Android 8.4" tablet is stored and on hand, if needed. This tablet displays everything my iFly GPS displays.and also connects me to the internet while flying thru 4G.  Total cost for iFly 740 GPS and SkyGuard with AHRS, was $2,650. If I didn't opt for the AHRS, it would have been $400 less.  I understand many pilots wish to use all Garmin equipment.  For those who are not interested in a 100% Garmin solution for ADS-B but want the same function and performance as the Garmin, they might look into this.

 

You're right about all equipment becoming obsolete.  I understand that the next big thing for ADS-B is the new micro units being used for drones.  These are supposedly the size of a pack of cigarettes and will comply with FAA rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh yes, I forgot you were one of the iFly 740 owners.  Having ADS-B has been an eye-opener for me. The "big sky, small plane" argument is "busted" now that I frequently encounter close-by conflicting aircraft which I previously wasn't aware of without ADS-B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dynon units do not qualify for the rebate either. They were trying to get the FAA to allow it, but my guess is that it is unlikely. It ends up kind of a wash. You can pay more for TSOed units that get you the rebate, or pay less for mandate approved units that are nonTSO. You probably come out better with the nonTSOed units.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, it appears from the comments that the FAA considered the units' GPS section to not be TSO'd or up to the performance requirements of the TSO. So as far as they are concerned, it can't be eligible for the rebate.  It isn't clear to me if only TSO'd units are eligible for the rebate.

 

My understanding is certified aircraft must have a TSO unit and experimental/light sport may have a non TSO but functionally equivalent unit (but maybe not get the rebate). I wonder what Dynon's problem is. Does their unit not comply with TSO performance, or is this just the rebate?

 

Apparently the FAA considers 2020 compliance and the rebate to be two different issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC for ADS-B out there are no non-TSO'ed units.  The rules allow for "equivalent performance" without defining what that means.  Until that is clarified, the only legal ADS-B out devices will have the TSO.  You can roll the dice and hope your non-TSO unit is found to have equivalent performance.  

 

I'm open to correction if somebody disagrees.  But I don't think you can just make a box in your backyard with the correct SIL bits set and have it be legal, no matter what you fly.  There are aircraft separation issues here the FAA is trying to solve, and having a bunch of "shade tree engineered" hardware out there makes ADS-B worse instead of better for that purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Dynon 2020 GPS isn't TSO'ed.  It meets the performance standards and is allowed by the FAA for post 2020 ADS-B out.  Dynon's transponder is TSO'ed.  Their FAA rebate team is following different rules then those who set the ADS-B requirements. 

 

Dynon on their 2020 GPS:

 

Doesn’t a 2020 compliant GPS position source needed to be certified (TSO or STC)?
No. The ADS-B equipment in the aircraft must meet the performance requirements of FAR section 91.225.This specifies that ADS-B out equipment must meet specific performance criteria but does not require TSO authorization. In Dynon’s case, the SV-XPNDR-261 is TSO’d. The SV-GPS-2020 is not TSO’d, but Dynon Avionics has performed the necessary engineering to ensure the equipment complies with all performance requirements of 91.225. An aircraft equipped with the SV-GPS-2020 as well as the SV-XPNDR-261 is therefore able to reach a Source Integrity Level (SIL) of 3 and System Design Assurance (SDA) of 2, as well as the other performance metrics required to be compliant with 91.225. Per the FAA’s guidance, Dynon will provide a statement of compliance to our customers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Dynon 2020 GPS isn't TSO'ed.  It meets the performance standards and is allowed by the FAA for post 2020 ADS-B out.  Dynon's transponder is TSO'ed.  Their FAA rebate team is following different rules then those who set the ADS-B requirements. 

 

Dynon on their 2020 GPS:

Has the FAA issued a letter saying that the Dynon unit meets performance standards? If so, great. If not, the device might or might not be allowed by FAA. I think these rules are a little too vague.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you spend some time browsing the low end ADS-B 'solutions' out there, you will see plenty of ambiguity among equipment manufacturers. It seems to me they are hoping that meeting the performance standards of the TSO will be good enough for experimental/LSA, but the FAA seems to be mum on the subject.  As far as the rebate goes, I'm not going to apply for it anyway. FD has come out with their idea for it, but I may go with a new Dynon Skyview system (if I'm convinced it will satisfy the FAA).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rebate requires a TSO'ed GPS (and transponder).  The ADS-B out compliance DOESN'T require a TSO'ed GPS.  It must meet the performance and that is a self certification process.  The FAA doesn't bless the unit.  The FAA can confirm the system correctly operates.  You can confirm by emailing the FAA and requesting a report.  The Dynon Skyview system with their 2020 GPS and transponder is fully 2020 compliant.  Any statement otherwise is false. 

 

You can use the rebate with a Dynon Skyview IF you use a TSO'ed GPS source to your Skyview.  The Dynon transponder also have to be a new install item.  Just adding the TSO'ed GPS won't qualify if you've already been transmitting with Dynon's transponder.  This is from the FAA rebate group.  The rebate group has setup rules to heavily target TC aircraft with no modern avionics. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Dynon transponder is TSOed but not STCed. Which seems to be the requirement for the rebate.

 

An STC isn't a requirement.  That would eliminate all LSA and experimental aircraft, but with that said, it's clear the FAA only wants older TC aircraft to get the rebate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is nothing in the rule that says anything about self certification. It just says equivalent performance is permitted, but doesn't say how that is determined. Since ADS-B is going to be relied upon by ATC for traffic separation, you can bet your butt that the FAA is not going to just trust manufacturers that their units perform as advertised. As of now the process is simply not defined.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Slightly off topic (but my ADS-B install is the reaso for the question). Does anyone know where I can find blanks for W&B and standard equipment lists?

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×