coppercity Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 CTLSi Americas Edition Dual Dynon 10 inch Skyview ; Garmin GTR 225 Com & Dynon Mode S; PM3000 Stereo Intercom w/IPOD jack; Oil & Coolant Thermostat system; 2 Bose ANR 20 headsets; 100 HP Rotax 912ULS FI engine; Stainless steel exhaust; 3 Blade Neuform propeller; Garmin 796 GPS-XM; 406 Mhz ELT w/remote panel Three axis trim system; Leather Seats; Cabin heater; Wheel pants & gear fairings; FD Night Flight package; Sliding air vents; Gull wing doors w/gas struts; BRS 1350 HS parachute system; LED strobes and position lights; Door locks; Parking brake; Fire extinguisher and CO Detector; 4 point pilot harnesses; 12V accessory plug; FD Prop cover, No bounce composite main landing gear; Leather Seats: Color Brown Leather Avionics Package Dynon Skyview touch (10” Dual Screen) Dynon SkyView Integrated 2-axis A/P (pitch & roll) Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery (Light Weight) Electric trim LED Landing Light Upgrade Dynon SV-ADSB-470 Tundra Tires and Fairings West Coast Shipping US government Fees for security & processing Registration for US N numbers Color Scheme: Americas Version Total: 173,420.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 The guy in Belgium should buy this before its shipped. He is about to quit his deposit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 What's the empty weight of this airplane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 That's kind of what I want to know. There's a point where loading the thing up exceeds the goal of the aircraft, and I feel like we blew way past that long ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted April 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Not sure yet, but a Jubilee edition we delivered equipped about the same came in about 830 lbs. Getting heavy but comparable to less equipped Czech sports, Slings and the old Sky catchers without BRS. I flew a nice Kitfox super sport the other day with only one Skyview, no BRS or autopilot and it was right at 800lbs with a 912uls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Not sure yet, but a Jubilee edition we delivered equipped about the same came in about 830 lbs. Getting heavy but comparable to less equipped Czech sports, Slings and the old Sky catchers without BRS. I flew a nice Kitfox super sport the other day with only one Skyview, no BRS or autopilot and it was right at 800lbs with a 912uls. Using 830lbs that leaves 490 lbs useful load. If there were 2x 200lb pilot/passenger that leaves enough useful for 15 gallons. Would it be correct to assume 3.5 gph on the injected engine? Allowing for 1 hour reserve (conservative) that leaves 3 hours 20 mins for cruise. To be fair if the reserve was 45 mins thats 3.5 hours cruise….but no bags. If we took 20lbs of bags and assorted items that leaves 70 lbs for fuel, say 11.5 gallons. Allow 2.5 gals for reserve that leaves 9 gallons for cruise. That leaves enough fuel for 2.5 hours cruise. Solo, a 200lb pilot could take full 34 gal fuel and 50 lbs of bags, or about half the bag capacity . Or he could take full bags of 110lbs and have 24 gallons of fuel. So not untypical of most LSAs in that carrying 2 bigger (than the old FAA passenger weight of 175) at about 200lbs there is a trade off between some bags and less than full fuel capacity. Solo a pilot can take more advantage of the extra fuel and bags and do a longer cross-country. That's just the weight, I don't know the 'balance' side. I've seen other LSA competitors turn out much higher empty weights. I flew a Skycatcher at 864lbs minimally equipped, no BRS, and a Tecnam at about 895lbs with many options and a 914 engine for example. The manufacturers are right, many customers for the LSA have a sport flying 'mission' knowing the airplanes are light and weight restricted. Then, they ask for many options which can really dig into that very same 'mission'. I checked out the FD CTLSi and have to say it's a really nice airplane with prices somewhat less than Tecnams with many of those options. In the end…buying an LSA is all about the 'mission'. If you get it right you're happy and not frustrated. If you get it wrong you have an airplane you love but are frustrated trying to do the things you want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 In my opinion, there is little reason to load up a relatively low performance LSA with a bunch of non-removable weight. If I was buying an LSA, it would not have a parachute or second screen and possibly not an autopilot (on the fence about that). I do like the fact that the Flight Design has a lot of fuel capacity that can be utilized when flying solo and/or with no baggage, etc. The CT airframes are light enough that the parachute does not harm the load much. My CTSW has a useful load of 585lb, 2x200lb people, 50lb of bags, and 22 gallons of fuel. Quite a useful config, even for two people on a long cross country. And the safety benefits are worth it, IMO. I kind of agree on the avionics, many go overboard. Mine has a Dynon D-100, 496 GPS, and analog engine gauges. A good balance for me, but probably more than strictly needed. I did add an autopilot in my airplane, but I rarely use it. I just wanted it for the rare long cross country flights or setting flight paths through tricky airspace. The CTLS added about 50lb to the CTSW empty weight. I think that was the wrong direction, but it is what it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Again, to reiterate: Even with 860 lb empty weight and 17.8 gals usable*, a Light Sport can still fulfill many missions. For instance, two people and baggage to Page, AZ and back from N GA. Lighter would be better, but high empty weight does not exactly turn a Light Sport into chopped liver. *My Sky Arrow numbers, just slightly better now with a lighter battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Again, to reiterate: Even with 860 lb empty weight and 17.8 gals usable*, a Light Sport can still fulfill many missions. For instance, two people and baggage to Page, AZ and back from N GA. Lighter would be better, but high empty weight does not exactly turn a Light Sport into chopped liver. *My Sky Arrow numbers, just slightly better now with a lighter battery. Eddie I agree with your points. The airplane below was a demo model flown at the 2014 Sebring Expo. I flew it myself and I have to say it was about the nicest LSA I've ever flown. Beautifully made and finished by Tecnam and the 914 Rotax was super smooth and quiet. Another guy was so enamoured that he switched from another P2008 he was buying to this actual plane. This plane was featured in an AOPA magazine review not long after Sebring. Yes, as a demo model you expect to see as many potential options as are available. The final empty weight is 101lbs over the standard. The resulting useful load is quite low, so…not so useful. The standard payload with full fuel means that 2 x 200lb folks couldn't fly together without dropping fuel and even then, no bags. To carry bags a further fuel reduction is warranted. Personally, with a full fuel load I could carry the max number of bags. As soon as I want to add a person, I have to decide to sacrifice fuel load, bags or both. I stress this because several folks I've spoken with lately about LSAs only look at the brochure and don't crunch the numbers. To be fair this is true of other airplanes, but we know that LSA is more weight critical. The shame of it is that the demo pilots stressed how the plane is designed and capable of carrying much more, but not legally. At a price of $219k a customer bought it and only they know whether the utility they desired has been met. However, the point to be made to a potential LSA owner and customer is….know what your 'mission' is and then see if the plane you like meets it, rather than the other way around. It's interesting that many LSAs are advertised with all the cool features and options with nary a mention of the weights. I get that customers want sport flying for the freedom, cost and utility, and….yes, it is they who get their checkbooks out for the latest and greatest machine on the ramp. Not chopped liver….but Caveat Emptor. Tecnam P2008 TC Base price: $171,400 Price as tested: $219,000 SpecificationsPowerplant | 115 hp turbocharged Rotax 914 UL Recommended TBO 2,000 hr Propeller | 68 in, 3 blade Sensenich Length | 22 ft 8 in Height | 8 ft 1 in Wingspan | 29 ft 6 in Wing area | 131 sq ft Wing loading | 10.1 lb/sq ft Power loading | 11.5 lb/hp Seats | 2 Cabin length | 3 ft 11 in Cabin width | 3 ft 7 in Cabin height, seat to headliner | 2 ft 11 in Empty weight | 783 lb Empty weight, as tested | 884 lb Max gross weight | 1,320 lb Useful load | 537 lb Useful load, as tested | 436 lb Payload w/full fuel | 373 lb Payload w/full fuel, as tested | 272 lb Max takeoff weight | 1,320 lb Fuel capacity, std | 27.5 gal (27.4 gal usable) 165 lb (164 lb usable) Baggage capacity | 44 lb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Again, to reiterate: Even with 860 lb empty weight and 17.8 gals usable*, a Light Sport can still fulfill many missions. For instance, two people and baggage to Page, AZ and back from N GA. Lighter would be better, but high empty weight does not exactly turn a Light Sport into chopped liver. *My Sky Arrow numbers, just slightly better now with a lighter battery. Eddie, My mechanic works on 2 Sky Arrows for a local state department. We were both surprised at the higher empty weight compared to other all composite LSAs. Yours is nicely equipped with the same 912ULS engine standard on many LSA but the empty weight is closer to the Skycatcher which has the heavier 0-200D engine etc. Just curious as to why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Eddie, My mechanic works on 2 Sky Arrows for a local state department. We were both surprised at the higher empty weight compared to other all composite LSAs. Yours is nicely equipped with the same 912ULS engine standard on many LSA but the empty weight is closer to the Skycatcher which has the heavier 0-200D engine etc. Just curious as to why? Just guesses, but... 1) Originally designed as an unmanned drone, so weight was not a factor. 2) Then converted to a certified model (the 650) at 1,565 lbs, so weight was a lesser factor. 3) Ailerons and elevator both use tubes through their entire runs, with kind of complicated and convoluted linkages. Reliable and with a nice solid feel, but I have to think heavier than cable runs for the same purpose. Beyond that, a lot of details seem gossamer light and well designed, so its not like they just got lazy! Anyway, its probably much easier to design for light weight from a clean sheet of paper than to back into LSA limits from an existing design. I like what Burt Rutan is thought to have said - something like: "Any time I think about adding something to a plane, I throw it in the air. If it falls back down, its too heavy!" Oh, and my guess is the slower airspeeds with the same engine is due parley to the additional form drag of the high-mounted engine. In most tractor planes, the form drag from the engine and fuselage are pretty much in line and overlap, as it were. At least it looks sleek! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 If it weighs 12 pounds, that's 2 gallons of fuel. To me, that's significant. I'll opt for no parachute if buying an LSA where useful load is an issue. Fair enough. Choice is a great thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Fair enough. Choice is a great thing! Unless you choose right wing then Bob will have to call you out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 This senseless and silly conversation over useful load is not pertinent. These new planes are astoundingly capable. Those trying to duplicate the panel mounted 796 with an iPad are missing the point. And those that do not understand the reason to fly a fuel injected, solid state ignition aircraft like the 912iS are also in the dark. If you weigh too much then 70lbs difference will not save you. All the LSAs are in roughly the same boat. Two 250 lbs guys with full fuel is not a reality for ANY two-seater LSA, no matter what brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT2kflyer Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 I have a CT2k with a Dynon 100, Garmin 496, BSR but no auto-pilot: total weight is 717 lbs. Payload is 603 lbs. 204 for full fuel leaves me 398 lbs for Pax and bags. Works for me cross country and above 10,000 ft in the mountains of Colorado. Sometimes newer isn't better at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 This senseless and silly conversation over useful load is not pertinent. These new planes are astoundingly capable. Those trying to duplicate the panel mounted 796 with an iPad are missing the point. And those that do not understand the reason to fly a fuel injected, solid state ignition aircraft like the 912iS are also in the dark. If you weigh too much then 70lbs difference will not save you. All the LSAs are in roughly the same boat. Two 250 lbs guys with full fuel is not a reality for ANY two-seater LSA, no matter what brand. Did you know that the 912ULS also has solid state ignition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 This senseless and silly conversation over useful load is not pertinent. These new planes are astoundingly capable. Really, on a forum about airplanes, useful load is not pertinent? How astoundingly capable is a two seat airplane that can't practically carry two people? What shall we talk about here then? I guess the weather is nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Really, on a forum about airplanes, useful load is not pertinent? How astoundingly capable is a two seat airplane that can't practically carry two people? What shall we talk about here then? I guess the weather is nice. Perhaps the real issue is the American diet? I'm sure anyone with a name including Hamburger will have something to say on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Perhaps the real issue is the American diet? I'm sure anyone with a name including Hamburger will have something to say on that? Apparently not just the *American* diet... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/10863001/Why-are-British-girls-so-fat.html http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/21/how-britain-got-so-fat-obese http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/british-people-are-so-fat-you-can-see-them-from-space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 It's a foul calumny - we're all sylph-like over here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 It's a foul calumny - we're all sylph-like over here Cool, wanna buy a CTLSi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Price of fuel over here and the economy of the "i" has a better payback than it does for you. But no, I'll pass because I'm pretty happy with my "old" CT - if it ain't broke don't fix it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 It's a foul calumny - we're all sylph-like over here Um yeah…right! Just came back from the UK… chips with everything Ian?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Unless you're in Scotland then it's fried Mars Bars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Total nonsense. Garbage . . . as usual. My twit filter failed me again. You guys keep re-posting that crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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