gbigs Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Well, the ICON is here....the first 100 planes are called the 'Founders Edition' and are priced, get this... $247k! Seats: 2– Maximum Takeoff Weight: 1510 lbs– Useful Load: 430 lbs– Baggage: 60 lbs– Fuel: Auto Gas or Av Gas– Maximum Speed (Vh): 105 ktas– Range: 300 NM– Takeoff & Landing Distance: 750 ft– Engine (Rotax 912): 100 hp They claim to have 1250 deposits but how many will want such a limited plane and at those prices? They also say they can make 37 a month. Again, who will blow $250k on a plane that can't even match the base LSA speeds? It's a niche toy at best... Way too little, far too late...laughably expensive. http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/lsasport/icon-a5-first-delivery-slated-airventure-2015?cmpid=enews061815&spPodID=030&spMailingID=22872321&spUserID=NDcyODMyMzM0MjUS1&spJobID=581732238&spReportId=NTgxNzMyMjM4S0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 If they even sell 1/3 of those, they could become a major force. Like everyone, I loved the plane at first look (what, 8 years ago?), and even think it's pretty spiffy now. But, I lament all the publicity & press they got, that took away from many real aircraft that were really for sale. That one airplane received more press than all other LSAs combined (and maybe even GA in general). Gotta give them credit, they sure knew their marketing quite well. Now we'll see how they do on flying, production, parts and service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 It still looks like a very nice aircraft . I will wait for the second hand market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtk Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Like the concept, but thought the weight exemption would give it more Useful Load than just 430 pounds. That's on the lower-end of payload capacity for a LSA and makes it a non-starter for me.. And the price... ouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 And the price... ouch.I'd say. But "laughably expensive" is clearly subjective. I've heard that some have already spent over $160,000 for a Light Sport. Almost triple what I imagined Light Sports would go for when the concept was first "floated". While I don't laugh at those spending what I think are inordinate sums on Light Sports, I do figuratively roll my eyes at how far from the original concept Light Sport has moved. From that perspective, what's another $90k? I wish them well and hope they can actually make money at that price point at whatever volume they can sell. You know, it might just work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'd say. But "laughably expensive" is clearly subjective. I've heard that some have already spent over $160,000 for a Light Sport. Almost triple what I imagined Light Sports would go for when the concept was first "floated". Well, I don't think when people heard of the original concept, they were thinking about fully-integrated avionics with glass panels providing all instrumentation and EMS functions, autopilots, leather seats, and all the other weight-gobbling goodies. Just look at the CT...it went from an airplane with a 610lb useful load for $75k - $80k, to one with 430lb useful load and a $140k+ pricetag. The real problem is the 1320/1430 weight limit, that provides a "hard" boundary to the amount of swag you can reasonably pack into a LSA. Other airplane types can pork out and up the gross weight to compensate, LSA don't have that option. As for the Icon, I don't really "get it". What does it do that the new Searey LSX doesn't do, for less than half the price? There will always be premium brands, but IMO they have to bring something to the table other than a name: features, quality, amazing support...SOMETHING. The one real problem I have with Icon as a company, is that in looking at their press materials, they talk about haw revolutionary and unique their airplane is, and act like they invented all these features. Look at their video about Angle-of-Attack (AoA); they talk about a "new" way to to fly, as if AoA has not been in use in various airplanes for decades. It rubs me the wrong way. Since I haven't been there in a long time, I went to the Icon site and poked around...I found this interesting note tucked at the bottom of their "specifications" page (which is misnamed, it has no weight or performance specs): * Due to ICON’s exemption to the US LSA weight limit (FAA Regulatory Docket No. FAA-2012-0514), The ICON Complete Airplane Parachute is mandatory for US registered A5s. Complete Airplane Parachute pricing is not included in the estimated price quoted here and will be provided at the Production Notice. So there goes another ~35lb of useful load. They quote the useful for their base model as 430lb...if the BRS is not included in that number, you are really looking at 395lb useful load...one person, full fuel (20 gallons), and baggage. If you are a US 200 pounder, and want to carry a passenger, they'd better weigh less than 150lb, and even then you will be carrying 10 gallons or less of fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'd say. But "laughably expensive" is clearly subjective. I've heard that some have already spent over $160,000 for a Light Sport. Almost triple what I imagined Light Sports would go for when the concept was first "floated". While I don't laugh at those spending what I think are inordinate sums on Light Sports, I do figuratively roll my eyes at how far from the original concept Light Sport has moved. From that perspective, what's another $90k? I wish them well and hope they can actually make money at that price point at whatever volume they can sell. You know, it might just work. Apparently you are not up on the price/performance for the newer designs. The new Flight Design C4 will come in at the same price as the little ICON but will be a certified 4-seater and cruise at 160ktas and a useful of 1320 lbs. The new Mooney M10J will also be in the same price range but be able to burn Jet-A, cruise at 150ktas, have three seats and a useful of 1000lbs. http://www.mooney.com/aircraft/m10j/ The ICON is also not alone in the water, the MVP will blow it out of the water and be at least 50k cheaper. http://www.mvp.aero/airplane/ The Flight Design CTLSi is $160k for a reason. It is the most sophisticated LSA on the market and apparently holding it's value very well. No one makes a new factory built plane for under $100k unless you are talking about a tube and fabric STOL like the Aerotrek. Few are buying that plane also. The ICON is not competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Apparently you are not up on the price/performance for the newer designs. The new Flight Design C4 will come in at the same price as the little ICON but will be a certified 4-seater and cruise at 160ktas and a useful of 1320 lbs. The new Mooney M10J will also be in the same price range but be able to burn Jet-A, cruise at 150ktas, have three seats and a useful of 1000lbs. http://www.mooney.com/aircraft/m10j/ The ICON is also not alone in the water, the MVP will blow it out of the water and be at least 50k cheaper. http://www.mvp.aero/airplane/ The Flight Design CTLSi is $160k for a reason. It is the most sophisticated LSA on the market and apparently holding it's value very well. No one makes a new factory built plane for under $100k unless you are talking about a tube and fabric STOL like the Aerotrek. Few are buying that plane also. The ICON is not competitive. I'm not a fan of ICON but 1200+ orders makes it very competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'm not a fan of ICON but 1200+ orders makes it very competitive. The deposits mean nothing. They are refundable up to the point you are required to commit. The Cirrus SF50 is the same way. There are 600 deposits on a $2m light jet. Most of those are just positioning deposits despite Cirrus policy no one make a deposit unless they are actual buyers. Some make a market out of depositing early to get an early plane, but intend to sell the position and not actually buy the plane themselves. If that market does not materialize, they disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Deposits are only refundable if the company has them. I believe there have been examples of aviation companies taking deposits, then declaring bankruptcy and writing off their debts, and then reorganizing without the pesky burden of having to pay back the deposits they spent years ago. IIRC this is what the company making the Viking engine did. If the company says they can't pay back your deposit, in some cases you might as well keep your spot and see if you can get the product at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 The ICON is also not alone in the water, the MVP will blow it out of the water and be at least 50k cheaper. http://www.mvp.aero/airplane/ "Estimated delivery 2018/2019" Grain of salt and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 "Way too little, far too late...laughably expensive., " Agree , Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 From that perspective, what's another $90k? A Flight Design C4, that's what it is. And I'd probably be able to buy it sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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