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F16 and cessna 150 crash


procharger

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My understanding is the F-16 T-boned the 150, disintegrating it.  The F-16 pilot ejected safely.  It *appears* both planes were under ATC control, the 150 on Flight Following and the F-16 on an IFR flight plan.  Since ATC does not provide separation for VFR traffic (only advisories when they are able), both pilots were required to "see and avoid".  It would be interesting to know what visibility conditions were at the time of the accident; spotting a plane going ~250kt in time to do anything about it is tough.

 

In another forum somebody mentioned that the F-16 should have seen the Cessna on radar.  Another pilot with F-16 time said they usually "gate" the radar with a speed threshold that won't pick up cars on the highway, and those speeds sometimes overlap slower airplanes.  Such targets are detected by the radar, but not displayed.

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Andy,

 

"If" The F-16 aircraft was under ATC control and on a IFR flight plan, I believe ATC must provide separation for the IFR aircraft.

That's my understanding but open for correction if incorrect.

 

Only conjecture but if the IFR aircraft cancelled IFR for a visual approach that would release him/her from the watchful eye of ATC.

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Andy,

 

"If" The F-16 aircraft was under ATC control and on a IFR flight plan, I believe ATC must provide separation for the IFR aircraft.

That's my understanding but open for correction if incorrect.

 

Only conjecture but if the IFR aircraft cancelled IFR for a visual approach that would release him/her from the watchful eye of ATC.

 

 

I'm not an IFR guy, so I don't know completely how that all works.  I think we're going to have to wait for more info to know for sure what happened.

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ATC provides IFR separation from other IFR traffic. They wouldn't always know about VFR traffic. That's why maintaining VFR cloud clearances is so important for VFR pilots. Its see and be seen when flying in VMC.  IFR/IFR separation is provided in non-radar (and radar) environments via IFR clearances.

 

What?  ATC provides separation for ALL traffic...  Unless you are buzzing around a non towered airport and even then ATC can see you if you have a Mode C xpndr.

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What?  ATC provides separation for ALL traffic...  Unless you are buzzing around a non towered airport and even then ATC can see you if you have a Mode C xpndr.

What?  At our airport you can't even talk to ATC until you are 2000 feet above the ground, and radar coverage doesn't start until you are 3000 AGL.

 

ATC only provides separation for aircraft operating on a clearance. For aircraft not on a clearance but talking to ATC they may provide advisories work load permitting.

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Advisories are often provided but separation for VFR is see and avoid.

 

Given the slow speed of a C-150 the on-board radar might have been set to not display slow moving automobile traffic and in the process filtered out the slow moving 150.

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Not true burgers.

LSA Flyer is correct, IFR to IFR yes (seperation is provided), but not from VFR traffic.

Ever hear of the ATC term "radar service terminated?"  After that, you are on your own.

Which brings up a good question.  During VFR flight and in radar contact, what services are provided?

 

LSAF, Wmlnce,

 

Thanks for that information. I was incorrect in thinking that IFR was separated from VFR traffic.

On some of my x country trips, while participating in flight following, I've been asked to change course for traffic avoidance, then to resume navigation when there was no conflict.

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That does raise the issue of vfr CLEARED into class b. I suppose that would be the exception where all traffic would receive separation services, but probably not scooting through a vfr corridor. Idk.

 

ATC only provides separation to aircraft operating on a clearance. VFR in class "B" would be operating on a clearance. IFR operating in other airspace except "G" would be on a clearance.

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TRACON and towered ATC services provide traffic separation inside the controlled airspace and enroute.  Traffic advisories are provided to all pilots, whether flying on IFR, VFR flight plans, or no flight plan. 

 

As long as you are on frequency (or monitoring) with the tower, approach or departure control you will be able to hear and respond to traffic advisories.

 

Also, you can request and get flight following when away from controlled airspace, even if flying VFR at relatively low altitude (below 18k).

 

Fast aircraft have a special responsibility to avoid slower traffic, esp near ALL airports, or in the pattern.

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TRACON and towered ATC services provide traffic separation inside the controlled airspace and enroute.  Traffic advisories are provided to all pilots, whether flying on IFR, VFR flight plans, or no flight plan. 

 

As long as you are on frequency (or monitoring) with the tower, approach or departure control you will be able to hear and respond to traffic advisories.

 

Also, you can request and get flight following when away from controlled airspace, even if flying VFR at relatively low altitude (below 18k).

 

Fast aircraft have a special responsibility to avoid slower traffic, esp near ALL airports, or in the pattern.

 

In my best Popeye voice, me thinks you don't understand the difference between providing separation and traffic advisories.

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In my best Popeye voice, me thinks you don't understand the difference between providing separation and traffic advisories.

 

Traffic advisories are part of traffic separation.

 

For those unfamiliar with this dynamic, you are REQUIRED to acknowledge all traffic advisories with  'traffic in sight' or 'looking for traffic'  And if traffic not initially located, once you do see the traffic you MUST tell ATC you have them in sight.

 

You are REQUIRED to climb/descend/hold altitude, make turns, and/or reduce speed when instructed by ATC in regard to traffic separation. 

 

As I stated, ATC separates traffic whether in controlled airspace, on the ground, takeoff/landing clearances, approaching/leaving controlled airspace, on flight following, for all types of traffic - VFR, IFR, plan filed, or not.

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Traffic advisories are part of traffic separation.

 

For those unfamiliar with this dynamic, you are REQUIRED to acknowledge all traffic advisories with 'traffic in sight' or 'looking for traffic' And if traffic not initially located, once you do see the traffic you MUST tell ATC you have them in sight.

 

You are REQUIRED to climb/descend/hold altitude, make turns, and/or reduce speed when instructed by ATC in regard to traffic separation.

 

As I stated, ATC separates traffic whether in controlled airspace, on the ground, takeoff/landing clearances, approaching/leaving controlled airspace, on flight following, for all types of traffic - VFR, IFR, plan filed, or not.

You can decline advisories (flight following while VFR, for example, is an advisory service). I don't recommend it, but ATC advisories cannot force you to change your vector or altitude.

 

You DO have to comply if you are in A/B/C/D, restricted while active, prohibited, or other special use airspace (TFRs etc). These are not advisories. Although, these requests can also be declined if you have good reason (especially for TFRs and prohibited airspace, you better have a DAMN good reason).

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Traffic advisories are part of traffic separation.

 

<edited out extraneous stuff all pilots already know>

 

As I stated, ATC separates traffic whether in controlled airspace, on the ground, takeoff/landing clearances, approaching/leaving controlled airspace, on flight following, for all types of traffic - VFR, IFR, plan filed, or not.

AIM 5-5-10. TRAFFIC ADVISORIES (TRAFFIC INFORMATION)

 

a. Pilot:

 

1. Acknowledges receipt of traffic advisories.

 

2. Informs controller if traffic in sight.

 

3. Advises ATC if a vector to avoid traffic is desired.

 

4. Does not expect to receive radar traffic advisories on all traffic. Some aircraft may not appear on the radar display. Be aware that the controller may be occupied with higher priority duties and unable to issue traffic information for a variety of reasons.

 

5. Advises controller if service not desired.

 

b. Controller:

 

1. Issues radar traffic to the maximum extent consistent with higher priority duties except in Class A airspace.

 

2. Provides vectors to assist aircraft to avoid observed traffic when requested by the pilot.

 

3. Issues traffic information to aircraft in the Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas for sequencing purposes.

 

Bolded mine.

 

Note that neither the words "separate" nor "separation" are anywhere contained therein.

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I think the real point here is when you are on a clearance you might hear something like this:

 

"Flight Design 509CT, traffic conflict, turn right to heading 270"

 

Whereas in Flight Following you'd hear:

 

"Flight Design 509CT, traffic twelve o'clock, two miles, same altitude, recommend right turn to heading 270"

 

The difference is that in the first case you are under ATC control, they are responsible for traffic separation, and you MUST obey their directions.  In the second case you are receiving traffic advisories and are not under ATC control, and may take whatever action you like (including nothing).  ATC is merely providing a recommendation based on what they are seeing, and you are responsible for traffic separation. 

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You can decline advisories (flight following while VFR, for example, is an advisory service). I don't recommend it, but ATC advisories cannot force you to change your vector or altitude.

 

You DO have to comply if you are in B/C/D, restricted while active, prohibited, or other special use airspace (TFRs etc). These are not advisories. Although, these requests can also be declined if you have good reason (especially for TFRs and prohibited airspace, you better have a DAMN good reason).

 

You CANNOT decline a directive to turn, change altitude or refuse to acknowledge such...  and you will be questioned if you do not acknowledge the advisory.  the advisory is given to provide you a chance to do your own avoidance, but its part of traffic management and separation....its a prelude to further instruction if you DO NOT TAKE safe and evasive action based on the advisory.

 

Most often ATC will give you a heading and an altitude change right after an advisory if they judge the situation unsafe.

 

A PIC is allowed to ignore any ATC instruction if the pilot judges it unsafe, but you MUST first inform ATC of your intent to ignore their instruction...if you just plow ahead and hit another plane you will lose your life at worst, or your license at least.

 

As some will tell you, all of this gets sorted out after the crash...

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LSA Flyer, that is a good article, but it does lose a little credibility because of the number of places it says you are required to have a clearance into class C airspace. Class C airspace requires established two way radio communication, and not a clearance. The same for class D, but I suspect he figured that if you are on flight following that you will be higher that 2500 AGL.

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You CANNOT decline a directive to turn, change altitude or refuse to acknowledge such...  and you will be questioned if you do not acknowledge the advisory.  the advisory is given to provide you a chance to do your own avoidance, but its part of traffic management and separation.

 

True, you cannot ignore an ATC instruction.  But on Flight Following, ATC does not issues instructions outside B/C airspace.  They issue RECOMMENDATIONS.  If you are on FF in class E/G airspace and they are NOT providing separation.  At all.  FF is on a workload permitted basis.  They might not even tell you if you are on a collision course, nor are they required to.  You are literally their *lowest* priority.  

 

I have been on FF in the Orlando area, looked out the window and seen a 172 less than a half mile away, on roughly the same course, slowly closing with me.  I slowed down and let him pass in front of me, then resumed course.  I never received a traffic advisory, nor was one required.  That was one of two close encounters on that trip while under FF.  Separation was entirely MY responsibility.  If I had decided that because I was on FF it was somebody else's problem, I'd be a smoking hole.  

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You CANNOT decline a directive to turn, change altitude or refuse to acknowledge such... and you will be questioned if you do not acknowledge the advisory. the advisory is given to provide you a chance to do your own avoidance, but its part of traffic management and separation....its a prelude to further instruction if you DO NOT TAKE safe and evasive action based on the advisory.

 

Most often ATC will give you a heading and an altitude change right after an advisory if they judge the situation unsafe.

 

A PIC is allowed to ignore any ATC instruction if the pilot judges it unsafe, but you MUST first inform ATC of your intent to ignore their instruction...if you just plow ahead and hit another plane you will lose your life at worst, or your license at least.

 

As some will tell you, all of this gets sorted out after the crash...

I have declined advisories before and asked for an alternative. One was sending me under a heavy rain cloud, the other would have put me over a large cloud layer. Due to how low the cloud layer was (1000 ft AGL), ATC could NOT provide an alternative and simply stated to the tune of "Roger, we cannot provide recommendations at those altitudes, maintain VFR".

 

Declining doesn't have to be rude or combative, it could be just informing them of your intentions and apologizing that you can't comply. I needed to get under that cloud layer and back home, which was 10 miles in under the edge of those clouds. They understand, all ATC must be private pilots at minimum, so they know what it's like.

 

As for traffic management: this applies to the alphabet soups except E and G, special airspace, and IFR aircraft. Out there in the wild E and G, ATC just helps if they can. If a VFR guy is crossing an IFR guys path, they'll ask whichever to turn, but the VFR guy can decline.

 

As for informing ATC: That is why they want a readback. That is POSITIVE CONFIRMATION that you heard the advisory or command. In an emergency, informing ATC is the LOWEST priority though. Aviate, navigate, communicate. So if there is no positive confirmation, they will cook up plan B and route the other guy. They've done that be fore with me because I had a mic button fail and couldn't respond until I jacked into the other port. He was already telling the other guy to turn.

 

Now, I repeat: in the alphabet soups except E and G, and special air spaces, they are NOT advisories.

 

My personal recommendation is to remember, ATC is there to help. You can help them help you. Sometimes a short & sweet explaination will help everyone. Too many people, even on this forum, are too afraid to talk to ATC. Even if your comm skills are really rusty, even bad, JUST TELL THEM THAT. They will slow down, annunciate, and use clear language. They will give you more time to form your readback. The worst thing people do is try to keep up with a pro ATC and it results in shyness, embarrassment, and a lot of "ummmm, ehhhh, hmmmmm" on frequency. I've had to say "tail number, that was too much at once, can we break it down?" and got the hell off frequency so they could use it. With advisories and commands, the same applies. Just talk to them.

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Declining doesn't have to be rude or combative, it could be just informing them of your intentions and apologizing that you can't comply. I needed to get under that cloud layer and back home, which was 10 miles in under the edge of those clouds. They understand, all ATC must be private pilots at minimum, so they know what it's like.

 

What is your source for this?

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What is your source for this?

You know, you ask and I realized it's anecdotal. I've not read it in a reg, just what I've been told by our local tower guys and a friend who wanted to be a TRACON controller. I am curious if it's a reg, or maybe just a requirement of the local controller contractor.

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