CTLSi - major delays - frozen deliveries?

[ralarcon]

There is another German Company whose products are easier and cheaper to buy and order in the USA ( deliveries are faster too), than it is in Europe or even Germany. And I have visited the factory in Stuttgart. They want to keep the US. market, their largest, happy. The name of the company is PORSCHE.

 

Cheers

[IrishAl]

I'm sure that many of these comments are at least partially true.   FD does seem to be looking after USA customers at the expense of others, they seem to have bitten off as much as they can chew with the C4, and on top of that they are sorting out a new manufacturing partner in China.  

 

They might be priming what could become a very large pump, and I hope they succeed.

 

But what I cannot accept is their ethics.  They require individual customers to pay the full price of a product in advance - a very significant act of trust in itself - in return for a promised delivery date.   To then let that date slip by more than a whole year is really unacceptable.   But to then refuse to talk to the customer, or to grant him an interview or an explanation is right out of the ball park in terms of acceptability.  

 

A company that trades like that...well, put your own ending on my sentence.  

 

It beggars belief.

[ralarcon]

"They might be priming what could become a very large pump, and I hope they succeed."

 

I suspect this indeed true. I know a number of older Cessna owners, that are looking at the C4, if it comes at close to price advertised, with great interest. The Chinese market would be huge, possibly as large or larger than the US. market eventually. I agree that European delays are excesive.

 

Cheers

[Top Cat]

There is nothing magical about US companies.  Vans is currently enjoying great success with both LSA and E-AB segments.  But that is no guarantee that if they fell on hard times that they would answer their phones either.  I've gotten screwed by at least as many US companies as foreign companies over the years...  

Didn't say there was anything 'magical' about US companies. Your words not mine.

 

From my own experience having had contact with several LSA companies ,with European roots and here in the USA, I opted for 'made in the USA' and so far I've avoided the hassles I found with the other companies. That's my experience, yours may be different.

[Anticept]

Consider the maintenance requirements for aircraft; its absurd.  Every 100 hours and every year...thousands blown due to the heavy regulations hyper expensive mechanics, and fragile components that must be checked and replaced far more frequently than car components.

 

This I need to comment on.

 

First, regulations will not force you to do 100 hour inspections as an owner in the USA. Just annuals.

 

Secondly, "hyper expensive" mechanics? I have two choice words that I want to say to you but can't on this forum. Airplane mechanics are cheaper than car and motorcycle mechanics. Even still, once you factor in overhead, we don't have a lot left over for take-home pay. Overhead such as hangar space, heating and electric, insurance, taxes, tooling and calibration, and training. If you've been an executive of a corporation like you said, you should already know how much insane overhead there is to employ someone... and thus with shop labor rates, most of that money collected goes right back out to someone else.

 

Thirdly, it's an airplane. A very high performance machine which undergoes enormous stresses and demands for hours at a time. Only racing machines undergo rougher treatment. Further, if people stop buying the cheapest damn parts on the shelf, we would have parts that could stand the test of time. It was a long uphill battle with other airplane owners in our flight school to convince them to buy the quality parts and modifications (golden example: the oil pressure relocation kit), and now we're seeing a lot FEWER problems and downtime, instead of going through the same routines every time the cheap parts and fixes failed.

[markmn]

 For the record I found dealing with Tecnam's US representatives just as frustrating and caused me to cancel a deal on an airplane.

 

 

 

Howard,

 

I remember demonstrating a fuel injected P2008 with you and expect/hope this is not directed at me personally as we never got to the point of putting a deal together.

 

I believe since Tecnam US has come to the USA without a middleman distributor things have improved significantly. I believe we have delivered every factory order aircraft on time ( we guarantee 6 months or money back ) and most have been delivered early around four months.  

 

We only ask for a 10% down payment on factory orders. We do not ask for further payment until the customer has inspected and accepted the aircraft during the aircraft delivery process. We have an extensive parts inventory at our Sebring Florida location and emergency parts can be delivered from Italy in 4-6 days.

 

I understand you are very happy with the RV12 and it is a very good aircraft.

 

 If you have any future dealings with Tecnam  hope I we make your experience a positive one.

 

Mark Gregor

Tecnam US Inc.

507-327-9465

[ralarcon]

Howard,

 

I remember demonstrating a fuel injected P2008 with you and expect/hope this is not directed at me personally as we never got to the point of putting a deal together.

 

I believe since Tecnam US has come to the USA without a middleman distributor things have improved significantly. I believe we have delivered every factory order aircraft on time ( we guarantee 6 months or money back ) and most have been delivered early around four months.  

 

We only ask for a 10% down payment on factory orders. We do not ask for further payment until the customer has inspected and accepted the aircraft during the aircraft delivery process. We have an extensive parts inventory at our Sebring Florida location and emergency parts can be delivered from Italy in 4-6 days.

 

I understand you are very happy with the RV12 and it is a very good aircraft.

 

 If you have any future dealings with Tecnam  hope I we make your experience a positive one.

 

Mark Gregor

Tecnam US Inc.

507-327-9465

I've been to the Sebring Dealership, it's very nice. The airplanes are beautiful and the people were cordial , I was just browsing with a friend on a Saturday. I found the aircraft they had there were outstandingly attractive, maybe I'll fly a demo one of these days. I've not seen it open on Saturday since that time. It must have been a special day. I see Tecnams as the Ferrari of Light Sport Aircrafts, always a very attractive airplanes.

 

Cheers

[FlyingMonkey]

Didn't say there was anything 'magical' about US companies. Your words not mine.

 

From my own experience having had contact with several LSA companies ,with European roots and here in the USA, I opted for 'made in the USA' and so far I've avoided the hassles I found with the other companies. That's my experience, yours may be different.

 

My only point was that the reason you have avoided any hassles from Vans *might* have more to do with them being the dominant and most profitable company in non-certified airplane manufacture in the world, and less with where they are located.

 

I'm not down on US companies, I'm just pointing out that economic realities drive most companies' customer experience.

[Top Cat]

Howard,

 

I remember demonstrating a fuel injected P2008 with you and expect/hope this is not directed at me personally as we never got to the point of putting a deal together.

 

I believe since Tecnam US has come to the USA without a middleman distributor things have improved significantly. I believe we have delivered every factory order aircraft on time ( we guarantee 6 months or money back ) and most have been delivered early around four months.  

 

We only ask for a 10% down payment on factory orders. We do not ask for further payment until the customer has inspected and accepted the aircraft during the aircraft delivery process. We have an extensive parts inventory at our Sebring Florida location and emergency parts can be delivered from Italy in 4-6 days.

 

I understand you are very happy with the RV12 and it is a very good aircraft.

 

 If you have any future dealings with Tecnam  hope I we make your experience a positive one.

 

Mark Gregor

Tecnam US Inc.

507-327-9465

 

 Mark,

 

    Since you brought it up I did actually have an agreement with Tecnam on a P2008, the problem was the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing (and apparently still doesn't), and frankly the experience became so frustrating that I decided I'd had enough. I realise that the 'middle-man' dealership is no longer involved.

 

 I also tried in vain to demo another P2008 with a guy who did everything not to move the process forward. Was he a Tecnam salesman or not, I still don't know, and I gather the airplane is still on your books  hardly flown in 3 years.

 

  I have to say the purchase process with Vans was completely the opposite and , as you say, I'm very happy with the airplane and the company. My airplane was delivered in 6 weeks after a $5k deposit and is about 130lbs less in empty weight than the P2008 demo airplane at Sebring. I consistently get 4.5gph on the 912ULS and it's an excellent flying airplane with great visibility, and is a few knots faster based on a magazine review. In short its been a great airplane for me personally and dealing with Vans has been a great experience.

 

 Whilst I would agree that Tecnam produces a very nice product, nicely finished and well made, they are consistently at the high end not only in price but on empty weight. A friend who looked at a demo model which was sold to another customer spoke with him and he said he was thinking of selling because of the high empty weight making it difficult to perform his personal 'mission',

  My friend also contacted another guy who was selling his P2008. The first thing the seller said about his plane was that it was heavy. In fact from what he said it sounds like it was consistently flown well in excess of max gross weight. Enough said.

 

  Whilst I wish Tecnam well, and personally think they are nice airplanes, sales haven't exactly been stellar, with only 24 P2008s on the register after several years, including a few demo models, 8 Astores including a couple of demo models, and one of the new  2010, the demo model. I'm surprised that with the weight issues Tecnam mostly offers the heavier more expensive 914 engine in the demos. Granted its a really nice smooth running engine.

 

Regards.

[Top Cat]

My only point was that the reason you have avoided any hassles from Vans *might* have more to do with them being the dominant and most profitable company in non-certified airplane manufacture in the world, and less with where they are located.

 

I'm not down on US companies, I'm just pointing out that economic realities drive most companies' customer experience.

 

   Well let me say this. The airplane met all my requirements as far as performance, weight, quality and price. They buying process was simple…basically over the phone discussing the details, filling out an online form and forwarding a $5k check. Six weeks later I took delivery at the 'factory' in OR.

 

 I got a couple hours with a CFI, included in the price, in both their demo plane and my new one, and thensat down in a very relaxed manner to take delivery from their sales guy who also gave me his personal cell# to call him if I had any kind of problem on the flight home across the USA. I didn't have any problems at all but it was reassuring.

 

 Since then I've bugged them with a lot of questions, which they've no doubt heard before, and sent numerous e-mails. Everytime I call them they patiently answer and get me talking with the right person and have been upfront, honest and straightforward.

 They called me back after a couple of months for feedback on the airplane, Vans and the purchase process and I was able to frankly provide my personal input.

  Isn't this the kind of company you'd want to do business with? 

 

 This is what I mean about 'made in the USA'…yes they are about the top selling LSA producer…and there are thousand being built, or have been built and there is a solid Vans forum which provides excellent information for new SLSA owners and builders. Whats not to like?

[FlyingMonkey]

We are in agreement that Vans in a great company.  

[gbigs]

Who in their right mind would do that?  I would order an RV12 any day before paying full price in advance.  That's crazy.

 

The answer is, they don't do it.  FD takes a 35% deposit.  Once you take delivery of the aircraft you pay the rest.  And FD puts you on the C4 list without deposit as a bonus.

[gbigs]

  

 This is what I mean about 'made in the USA'…yes they are about the top selling LSA producer…and there are thousand being built, or have been built and there is a solid Vans forum which provides excellent information for new SLSA owners and builders. Whats not to like?

 

RV is not the leader in factory made SLSA...they lead in ELSA kits.  They are a totally different product idea than what Flight Design is making.  The RV is cramped and primarily for guys that are fine flying around the patch.  The FD is a multi-mission plane that can both fly the patch and fly cross country well...and do it in comfort and utility. 

[Top Cat]

RV is not the leader in factory made SLSA...they lead in ELSA kits.  They are a totally different product idea than what Flight Design is making.  The RV is cramped and primarily for guys that are fine flying around the patch.  The FD is a multi-mission plane that can both fly the patch and fly cross country well...and do it in comfort and utility. 

 

 I actually don't give a hoot who leads in whatever category or who sold how many planes, although you do. Whatever you say, Vans can't make SLSAs fast enough to meet demand and kit sales are past 1000 so someone somewhere also thinks the airplane is a good product, besides me. This thread is about FDs problems manufacturing and delivery delays for their product. How come you're not as hard on them as you are on any other manufacturer?

 

Your memory is failing as we've had this discussion before but here goes again.

As you well know upon delivery I flew my RV-12 across the entire USA in 5 easy days, starting with 5 hours on the Hobbs. Its not cramped for me and I was able to carry plenty of luggage and tools/parts. I've flown it over 178 hours since July 2014 including cross country flights up and down the East Coast, across the entire USA, fly-ins,expos, and yes…just around the patch.

 

From what you've told everyone here you've done very few cross country flights for a 'multi-mission' plane so I don't really give much credence to your limited experience both as a pilot or as an owner.  Tell us about your own cross country flights…I mean literally 'cross-country' !  I have almost as much time in my RV in the last 18 months as you do total flight time.

 

You've never flown the RV whereas I have flown both the CTLS and CTLSi so you really don't have much to offer in the discussion except for the ability to memorize the FD brochure and some weird personal bias towards anything you don't own personally. For you the CTLSi is the best airplane ever made…and now you're even selling that! Go figure.

 

I'm sure you'll respond with the usual personal disparaging comments as you diss anything you don't like. So I'll leave it at that.

[Scott Lee]

Regarding some of the comments regarding airplanes being expensive, sure they are but compared to what?  I've got a Lexus that depreciates at $1,000 per month over the first three years.  I bought my 2010 CTLS fully loaded used (~400 hours) this year for around $120K and originally was around $150k.  $30K depreciation over 5 years is about $6,000 a year - far better than a high end car.  I think everyone here would agree that a CTLS is a high end LSA.  Lexus maintenance isn't cheap either.  My CTLS gets around 22 NM per gallon, my Lexus in the 18-20 mpg.  Both require premium gas.

 

Do we pay more, sure?  But isn't it about the freedom, comfort and joy of flying? There are always less expensive options but in the end it is a lifestyle choice.

[IrishAl]

Language, Timothy!!

[Anticept]

I'm curious as to why we care about language, we're all grown up

[Doug G.]

Here we go again. Next step, the admin comes in and stomps on the folks who make sense and who don't find it fun provoking others into personal attacks.

[ralarcon]

To bring the conversation back to the original subject, It appears, deliveries of Flight Design aircraft are not "Frozen" in the US.

 

Cheers

[FlyingMonkey]

I don't really know what "multi-mission" means in this context -- all LSA have the same mission, day VFR flights of any duration you are willing to undertake.  I have flown formation with RV-12s and they are every bit as fast as a CT when the props are pitched right on both.  I have sat in them, they are as comfy as a CT...and with more comfortable seats! 

 

The only substantive difference between the two types is 20 gallons vs. 34 gallons of fuel.  It's rare for any LSA to fly a leg that uses more than 17 gallons of fuel (the limit for an RV-12 to land with VFR reserves).  In a full day of flying, this might equate to two fuel stops instead of one.  No big deal, you flight plan for the fuel you can carry.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I only fly 2 hour legs.  With enough fuel for 3 legs its nice to keep burning my cheap and friendly mogas.

[gbigs]

RV-12 SLSA  is an all metal tandem seat low wing, bubble canopy with the 912ULS carb'd engine (no option for the 912iS): 

Useful Load:  720lbs.
Baggage: 50lbs.
Fuel Capacity: 20 gallons (3 hrs with reserve) tank behind seats
Cabin: 42 inches at seats
Top Speed: 117ktas
Cruise: 113ktas
Range: 500nm

BRS parachute:  None

 

Flight Design CTLS is an all composite high wing tandem seat with 912ULS (has option for the 912iS Sport engine): 

Useful Load: 810lbs.
Baggage: 110lbs.
Fuel Capacity: 34 gallons (6 hrs with reserve of 50 minutes) wing tanks
Cabin: 49 inches at seats
Top Speed: 135ktas
Cruise Speed: 120ktas
Range: 900 nm

BRS parachute:  Standard

 

(Note. The two configs above are about the same price. No one orders an FD CTLS with the 912ULS engine anymore though it is an option - all are 912iS with Dynon or Garmin touch)

[FlyingMonkey]

I think your useful load is actually empty weight.  In other words, 90lb heavier for the CTLS.

 

110lb of baggage capacity doesn't help if you can't legally carry it...

[Top Cat]

I don't really know what "multi-mission" means in this context -- all LSA have the same mission, day VFR flights of any duration you are willing to undertake.  I have flown formation with RV-12s and they are every bit as fast as a CT when the props are pitched right on both.  I have sat in them, they are as comfy as a CT...and with more comfortable seats! 

 

The only substantive difference between the two types is 20 gallons vs. 34 gallons of fuel.  It's rare for any LSA to fly a leg that uses more than 17 gallons of fuel (the limit for an RV-12 to land with VFR reserves).  In a full day of flying, this might equate to two fuel stops instead of one.  No big deal, you flight plan for the fuel you can carry.

 

   My RV-12 is burning 4.5 gph at 5100 rpm which is giving 118-120kts which equates to 3.5 hours flight with an hour reserve, I like to be conservative.

That has turned out to be fine for me.

 

 I do like the FD option to fly longer legs solo with the 30-34 gallon tanks however I've found that, in a lot of LSAs, if you take a passenger and some baggage you have to reduce fuel load to meet the 1320lb limit. Usually this ends up being around 20 gals or so and here it's the same as full fuel on the RV-12.

For me in the RV12 I can plan on 2 x 200lb passengers, full fuel, maybe 28-30lbs of bags and just go. On my own I would contemplate full fuel if I had 30-34 gallons but on the other hand my days of flying 5-6 hour legs are past so the 3-3.5 hour legs for me works out perfectly.

[Duane Jefts]

Everyone has a different mission.  When I flew to Alaska, and overflew Canada, The CTLS needed a full tank of fuel.  There are lots of LSA planes that cannot accomplish that.

 

Buy the airplane for your mission and  remember other folks  may have a different idea of what's best for them.