IrishAl Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 For the sake of continuity, I reproduce my comment here from another thread dealing with the same issue: I'm sad to say that I'm not surprised things have come to this. The writing has been on the wall for some time. However, I suggest that all is not lost. The company does have valuable assets and the potential for really substantial future growth, so there's a fair chance (in my opinion) that they won't unethically dump their debt through a bankruptcy and a re-commencement of trading under a different identity. Having said that, this opinion is not based on anything substantial. Please keep us posted on developments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 If things are as bad as they seem to be one can hope that, like Cirrus and others, the may be bought out. I don't know if that happens as easily in Europe as it does in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 If things are as bad as they seem to be one can hope that, like Cirrus and others, the may be bought out. I don't know if that happens as easily in Europe as it does in the US. As a data point, 3i - the manufacturer of the Sky Arrow - went through some form of Italian reorganization a few years ago and was bought out by another, larger Italian firm, Magnaghi. Significantly, I don't recall any horror stories like the one related above either before, during, or after the transition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 My CTSW new was $95,000 and there were plenty in stock. Money was easy 10 years ago with everyone's house appreciating rapidly and credit was easy and the 95k price for this level of performance made the buying decision pretty easy. There was even 100% depreciation in the year of purchase. Today, Price is approaching double, inventory is low, money is tight, income is down, credit is hard. Boom to bust in 10 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Some of this could be cultural. Anecdotally- a few years back my wife and I spent a couple of weeks with our former foreign exchange student's family in Germany. I discovered I did not have the correct converter to run my laptop, so I went to the German version of Best Buy and purchased one. It turned out to be the wrong one also, so I went back going to find the correct one. When, after consulting a clerk, I found out they didn't have the one I was looking got I asked for my money back which took the calling of the store manager who reluctantly refunded my money. He seemed completely surprised that I would ask for such a thing. Customer service doesn't seem to be a priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 My CTSW new was $95,000 and there were plenty in stock. Money was easy 10 years ago with everyone's house appreciating rapidly and credit was easy and the 95k price for this level of performance made the buying decision pretty easy. There was even 100% depreciation in the year of purchase. Today, Price is approaching double, inventory is low, money is tight, income is down, credit is hard. Boom to bust in 10 years? what is the link with the subject?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 I think he's pointing to slowing economic conditions no longer supporting the price and demand for these airplanes as a cause for any FD difficulties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Some of this could be cultural. Anecdotally- ........ Customer service doesn't seem to be a priority. That's stretching it, Doug. Your experience wasn't typical of European customer service - we have a raft of consumer rules here just like you guys do to protect the buying public. And to suggest that the service received by DECZR from Flight Design is due to customer service not being a priority in Europe...... well, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 That's stretching it, Doug. Your experience wasn't typical of European customer service - we have a raft of consumer rules here just like you guys do to protect the buying public. And to suggest that the service received by DECZR from Flight Design is due to customer service not being a priority in Europe...... well, no. The financial matter is not in charge of the Customer service at all. When you delay delivery for many planes (only here one is from Mexico, two from Australia, one from Switzerland and my plane) and you are not able or you don't want to pay back the money it is a matter of management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Thanks for the comment Al. I honestly do not know if my experience was unusual or not. It was a large, well known, chain there. It certainly doesn't rise to the level of things in this thread. I do know that there have been many comments on the forum about the difference in customer service from FD USA and elsewhere. I think if FD USA quit taking phone calls there would at least be a sign on the door, the local media would run a story, and word would spread quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 I agree. I lived in the USA for a number of years and I'd say that, generally speaking, your customer service, friendliness and overall willingness to be helpful is second to none. However, the issues at FD are almost certainly caused by a financial squeeze, likely brought on by a combination of C4 financial drain and the shift to China. The issues in Ukraine are less certain to be a factor in causing this problem, as has been suggested. It might be a stretch to describe it as war-torn at present, and also there was only fighting along their eastern border, while the FD plant is further west. However, Ukranian inflation is currently running at over 40% (!) so that may also complicate things a bit, but I can't see how that would cause the current problems. The lack of supply of Rotax engines due to a pre-pay requirement, as has been highlighted on this forum, is the most likely explanation for the dramatic fall in production numbers in 2015. If this speculation is anywhere near the true situation then I'd say the current unhappy customers have a very good chance of eventually getting a satisfactory outcome. I think this forum may also have a considerable influence in achieving that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Well pointed IrishAl! The delivery problem didn't appear sudden and, if you look on this site, you will see the delay started before Ukrainian war. My opinion, a speculation of course, the main problem was the project C4 with a lot of investment, without a financial planing. FD started to get money from the orders for CTLS and used them for this development. Instead to take money from some investors or from a bank they took money from the clients, a sort of pyramid scheme. What is pity, some clients made a credit from a bank to buy a plane and they pay installments now for a project of FD and nobody ask them if they agree to do it. One more aspect, FD kills the dream of some people to fly... Unfortunately, from FD we have not any point of view and it's a lot of room for speculations, only speculations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Wow, just scanning for new posts and I see this. Don't want to own a "orphan" airplane but it is looking like this might be the case? Seems to me that there was an investor or an investment group who planned to come in to help FD Germany finance the C4? This was during the time when FDUSA was planning on moving FDUSA up to Vermont and, as I recall, there was a plan to assemble the C4 there. Did anyone else hear the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 If a manufacturer goes under, someone can take the type data and become the new manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aero-Nut Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 A friend of mine is from the Ukraine. He just got back from a two week trip from over there and went to visit two LSA manufacturers over that way as he is in the market. He went to the FD factory and he could not get in touch with anyone at the facility. He said it looked like it was almost closed down. No one working there... I dunno. Maybe that explains why there are people waiting for their planes for years...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 If a manufacturer goes under, someone can take the type data and become the new manufacturer. That is normally true, but I'm not sure if the manufacturer being an LSA builder would make things easier or harder. I'm not sure LSA even have a type certificate in the Part 23 sense. Also, the international aspect of Flight Design would be sure to add a few wrinkles. And lastly, you can only buy what somebody is willing to sell. A lot of good airplanes have died because the owner of the intellectual property decided to sit on it rather than sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Nothing to do with part 23 I don't entirely know the process with becoming a type club and holding the authority. I am curious if there is even a recourse aside from going experimental. Still, I mentioned becoming an authority because I know that's an option, I'm just not sure of the requirements. Probably pretty easy if you buy the type design data, but I am curious if that course is unavailable, if there is another way than going experimental. What about civil suit as well? If a manufacturer stops supporting the product, do we have recourse in court? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 One more became nervous and made a site: http://www.flightdesign-airplane.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIK Posted February 15, 2016 Report Share Posted February 15, 2016 This is a friendly information to all new buyers www.flightdesign-airplane.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted February 15, 2016 Report Share Posted February 15, 2016 The site is a bit deceptive. The claimed factory photos show a CTSW fuse which may be sitting in a warehouse, ou somewhere else they have not been produced for many years. It makes it appear like they want to simply bash the company with that. It would be better if they just stuck to the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 15, 2016 Report Share Posted February 15, 2016 Doug, The paper shows that they were getting a Supralight. It has LS wings mated to a SW fuselage. The later ones even have the composite gear. Edited to add: After looking more closely at the picture and others on the net. The fuselage while it resembles a SW is not quite the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 15, 2016 Report Share Posted February 15, 2016 I'm not willing to throw FD under the bus on this. I'd wait for a comment from them. We know the political mess in Ukraine, and FD just opened production in China...there may have been very valid reasons for any delays in the last year or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted February 15, 2016 Report Share Posted February 15, 2016 I'm not willing to throw FD under the bus on this. I'd wait for a comment from them. We know the political mess in Ukraine, and FD just opened production in China...there may have been very valid reasons for any delays in the last year or two. Not at all! It seems to be a kind of business named pyramid scheme and now days it's the end of the game. I suppose the money was used for C4 project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 15, 2016 Report Share Posted February 15, 2016 Andy, I could be wrong but based on the press release from Flight Design USA the company in China is owned by AeroJones Aviation in Taiwan, and not Flight Design. They are building aircraft under license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted February 15, 2016 Report Share Posted February 15, 2016 Ct's will now be MFG'ed in the Ukraine and AeroJones Aviation in Taiwan. The slowness has been from transition to the Taiwan facility and C4 development so now extra personnel and added MFG power will help stem that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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