Cirrus SR22 Chute Pull

[gbigs]

Chute pull today in an SR22, four inside. 

 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=180979

[procharger]

How many of these planes have had this happen? Seems like  a lot?

[FastEddieB]

How many of these planes have had this happen? Seems like  a lot?

There are a LOT of Cirrus planes out there, flying a LOT of hours, but, yes, it does seem to be happening a lot.

 

I just posted the following to the POA site:

 

"Good outcome, and I'm not addressing this towards the accident pilot.

 

But it needs to be said - if your engine dies, or you suspect it may soon, turn directly towards the best available landing site (terrain permitting), and establish best glide.

 

If you can place your plane over an adequate runway, you should have the skills to circle down to a key position abeam the numbers and execute a power off landing on the first half of the runway. If you don't, that's something to practice until you can.

 

But as an instructor, I can't tell you the number of times I've pulled power on a student or BFR applicant either over or almost over an airport, watched him or her fly away from the airport a considerable distance, and then come up short of the runway - pilots are notoriously lousy at judging glide range in unfamiliar circumstances.

 

In the case in question, it sure seems the pilot had plenty of altitude, and it also seems he was often descending at a far faster rate than best glide would have given him. Unless there was smoke in the cockpit, it's hard for me to see why that would ever be a net positive. But in a crisis, the siren song of getting on the ground quickly can be very powerful.

 

Looking forward to more details on this one."

[FlyingMonkey]

Cirrus drills pilots to "consider CAPS" first in an emergency, because their fatal accident rates were higher than other types.  The fatal rate goes down, but now there are complaints that there are more chute pulls (all with good outcomes)?

 

Cirrus guys just can't win.  

[John R]

His three passengers Walked away. Nuff said!

[gbigs]

Cirrus drills pilots to "consider CAPS" first in an emergency, because their fatal accident rates were higher than other types.  The fatal rate goes down, but now there are complaints that there are more chute pulls (all with good outcomes)?

 

Cirrus guys just can't win.  

 

Not true.  Cirrus touts their CAPS system as an advancement in safety design.  They provide scenarios where pulling the chute makes sense, namely at night, over water, midair etc.  They also say you MAY pull the chute regardless of altitude on takeoff, but say deployment may not work below 600 feet agl.

 

The accident rates were not due to having a parachute.  So many of their aircraft were ending up on fields for rent and pilots renting them did not have transition experience in high performance planes like the SR22T that needless accidents were happening.  Also, Cirrus perspective coupled with the G1000 is a complex and highly capable avionics platform that also requires training.

 

The answer for Cirrus was to provide extensive transition training to all customers.  And to REQUIRE such training before allowing anyone to rent and fly the plane.   The accident and fatality rates dropped after this training regimen took hold. 

 

It is also a myth that Cirrus has the chute due to not passing spin certification by the FAA.  The truth is that Cirrus was allowed to forgo spin testing since they agreed to use both the NASA designed aileron enabled-spin-inhibiting wing, and the parachute.

[John R]

I started flying lessons last year for LSA. My first instructor on the First day told me the only reason he was a CFi was to bank hours to become a professional pilot. My first day with him was his first day in this LSA. He had black slacks white shirt and tie. The first day i walked into training center the man working counter asked me what i wanted. Told him i was there for first flight lesson. He threw paper at me and told me to fill out weight and balance for plane. Bad month for small planes in Houston area with one a week going down with deaths. Wife said if you want to fly fine but im not going too. Kinda defeated the reason for wanting to learn as we had grand babies to visit. Moved to another school with with older gentleman instructor who loved teaching new students.Could not change wives mind so i stopped training. All that being said you turn your dead plane back to find a place to land ill pull the handle and save my family and friends and listen to your second guessing.

[FastEddieB]

Cirrus drills pilots to "consider CAPS" first in an emergency...

The key word here is "consider"...not "pull".

 

Many Cirrus pilots were going to their deaths never apparently even considering CAPS under the stress of the moment. I would have thought that highly unlikely for me, until it happened - in a simulator, fortunately.

 

In this case, as soon as the low oil pressure was seen, CAPS should have been "considered". And the full situation here is not yet known.

 

Speculating, I think after considering it, a logical conclusion might very well have been, "Not yet", as an airport was found and turned towards at best glide speed. And, once considered, the CAPS should have been considered repeatedly. Even if a pull was later made, over an airport is still a pretty favorable place to come down.

 

But, again, if a pilot can arrive over an airport with an adequate runway at virtually any altitude over pattern altitude, he or she should be able to glide to a landing. If not confident in one's ability to do that, then a pull is the Most Conservative Action.

 

But I'd also say if you're not virtually 100% sure you can make a power off landing from over an airport, time for some practice or training or both. For those nearby to me, I'd be happy to serve as a safety pilot, and maybe I can practice at the same time.

 

Anyway, lengthy discussion of this incident on the POA site, if anyone is interested.

[andyb]

Let me tell a story. I have 2400 total hours, 2100 of which are in the Cirrus, and instrument and commercial ratings.  The commercial is relevant to this because you have to be able to consistently nail power-off "precision" landings from being abeam the numbers on the downwind.  Among the various stick and rudder skills, some of which I was better at than others, I had no difficulty with the power-off landings.

 

I was at a weekend of Cirrus-specific training, with a very experienced Cirrus instructor.  I always used these as an opportunity to practice simulating engine failures at altitude.  So, at 6,000 feet and about 5 miles from the airport, the instructor pulled the power.  I came in just fine, circled above the "key" position, did the right number of circles, and came out of the circles where I wanted to be.  This was my decision point as to whether to pull the CAPS, and I decided that I wouldn't, as all was good and I was in a position from which I had successfully landed dozens of times.  The hard part was over.  But, given that I didn't have an engine (simulating), I made a decision to tighten up the remaining pattern a bit.  As a result, I overshot the centerline, and I came in to the left of the runway on final.  If it was a real emergency, I would have banked hard to the right, then back to the left, then landed probably half-way down the runway.  At that point, I think there was a 70% chance that I could have landed without damage or injury...FAR less than my normal success rate (>95%) from routine power-off landings from the key position.  By that time, I was too low to use the CAPS.

 

All was fine, of course, because I just went around, and next time did it fine.  And yes, tightening the pattern rather than doing it as I always did was stupid.  I'm not entirely sure how stupid I would be in a real emergency.  On the one hand, the one time I had a real emergency I was very calm, which surprised me.  On the other hand, in spontaneous simulated emergencies my track record isn't as good as I'd like.  But the reality is, I just don't know.

 

When the instructor and I debriefed, her position is that even experienced pilots, proficient at power-off landings, should pull the chute with an engine failure, due to the preponderance of their making abnormal mistakes.  She's a tough, demanding instructor, who held me to a very high standard (popped the door open in winter, during a low-ceiling ILS, to see how I did with distractions, for example), yet her perspective was that CAPS was by far the better statistical option with an engine failure.  FWIW, that became my new protocol, which fortunately I never needed to apply.

 

Andy

[Tom Baker]

Granted I didn't read all of the accounts in the link, but all it says is that he lost oil pressure. I tell all my students if you lose oil pressure indication be on high alert for the engine to quit. If the engine is running continue to fly the airplane, but be ready for the worse. I would not pull the chute just because of low oil pressure, unless I knew the engine was failing. To many times I have seen errant oil pressure readings when there was no real problem other than the indication system.

[FastEddieB]

Andy,

 

Great perspective.

 

Warran Zevon sang, "You're a whole 'nother person when you're scared".

 

I've certainly done some bonehead things when under stress, do I try not to be too quick to judge others.

[andyb]

Granted I didn't read all of the accounts in the link, but all it says is that he lost oil pressure. I tell all my students if you lose oil pressure indication be on high alert for the engine to quit. If the engine is running continue to fly the airplane, but be ready for the worse. I would not pull the chute just because of low oil pressure, unless I knew the engine was failing. To many times I have seen errant oil pressure readings when there was no real problem other than the indication system.

Tom,

 

I totally agree with you.

 

Interestingly, the talk on the Cirrus board is migrating to his not declaring an emergency, and getting himself into a position that if the engine quit, he was vectored too far out to make the runway.  It looks like had he used your advice, and been on high alert for the engine to quit, he wouldn't have expended so much altitude by an extended downwind and final while being vectored for the approach, and been in a position to be able to glide to the airport if that was his strategy.  Hindsignt's 20/20, but by not declaring an emergency the controller was bound to various procedures, which ultimately cost him altitude and also being within gliding range of the airport.  While personally I likely would have pulled the 'chute when the engine quite (per my earlier post), for sure he lost options.

 

Andy

[gbigs]

We have had long debates on this and other sites over the 'old school' notion of landing at any cost and under every circumstance in an emergency versus having a parachute on board and using it under many of those same circumstances.

 

Some have asserted that an impossible turn is possible and even practice the maneuver under the mistaken impression that they are accomplishing the task (but ignoring the obvious fact that if you KNOW AHEAD OF TIME you are going to try the turn you can NEVER simulate an actual impossible turn because in real life they don't come planned).

 

We all know as flyers aviation decision making is about attitude and pre-drilling emergency scenarios.  If you do not have a parachute on your plane then the entire subject of a parachute is moot.  But if you do have a parachute then you should be ready to use the device under specific emergency scenarios and not hesitate. 

 

Here is a list I have on my emergency procedures checklist:

 

1. Mid-air collision

2. Single engine out on takeoff

3. Single engine out beyond glide range of airport
4. Single engine out over hostile terrain
5. Single engine out during night flight
6. Loss of control (due to icing or linkage failure)
7. Low altitude stall-spin
8. Major structural failure

9. Component failure resulting in an unflyable aircraft
10, Pilot incapacitation (heart attack) - brief passenger
11. Overshooting runway

 

The system can function at altitudes under 300 feet AGL for the Cessna 150 (the altitude to which FAA certified the system), and as low as 100 feet for ultralights. For the Cirrus it's around 600 ft agl, and for the Flight Design around 400 ft agl.  But if the engine fails on takeoff pulling the chute at any height is okay especially if the terrain ahead is deadly.

[IrishAl]

I think a very significant part of the stress experienced in an engine failure (assuming it occurs at a reasonable height) comes from the unfamiliarity of flying the plane with no engine. 

 

If you don't know what your plane can do without the engine, this 'unknown' is a door through which debilitating fear can come, and that's the sort of fear that ensures poor decisions.

 

Sure, I've never been in that position, but I'm certain I'd do better if I had lots of practice than if I hadn't.

 

Regularly pulling the throttle 'just for fun' or 'just to see if I can do it' has got to be one of the best preparations for an engine out situation.

 

When's the last time you practiced  - had lots of fun with - power out situations?

[IrishAl]

CTLSi, on your list of scenarios where you'd use the 'chute, can you expound a bit on the last item - overshoot?

 

Do you mean you'd pull it if you were running out of runway while you were on the ground?

[Top Cat]

I think a very significant part of the stress experienced in an engine failure (assuming it occurs at a reasonable height) comes from the unfamiliarity of flying the plane with no engine. 

 

If you don't know what your plane can do without the engine, this 'unknown' is a door through which debilitating fear can come, and that's the sort of fear that ensures poor decisions.

 

Sure, I've never been in that position, but I'm certain I'd do better if I had lots of practice than if I hadn't.

 

Regularly pulling the throttle 'just for fun' or 'just to see if I can do it' has got to be one of the best preparations for an engine out situation.

 

When's the last time you practiced  - had lots of fun with - power out situations?

Al, good points about flying with the engine stopped. Here's a link to a video where a guy intentionally stopped the engine and made a dead stick landing.

 

 

He was planning it and was about 5 miles from the airport and did not go through any simulated attempt to restart the engine or make an emergency call, but it was to practice a dead stick landing. Interesting exercise in energy management and just 'flying the airplane'.

 

Something to practice with an instructor or to do on a BFR.

 

Here's another one:-

 

[Top Cat]

We have had long debates on this and other sites over the 'old school' notion of landing at any cost and under every circumstance in an emergency versus having a parachute on board and using it under many of those same circumstances.

 

Some have asserted that an impossible turn is possible and even practice the maneuver under the mistaken impression that they are accomplishing the task (but ignoring the obvious fact that if you KNOW AHEAD OF TIME you are going to try the turn you can NEVER simulate an actual impossible turn because in real life they don't come planned).

 

We all know as flyers aviation decision making is about attitude and pre-drilling emergency scenarios.  If you do not have a parachute on your plane then the entire subject of a parachute is moot.  But if you do have a parachute then you should be ready to use the device under specific emergency scenarios and not hesitate. 

 

Here is a list I have on my emergency procedures checklist:

 

1. Mid-air collision

2. Single engine out on takeoff

3. Single engine out beyond glide range of airport

4. Single engine out over hostile terrain

5. Single engine out during night flight

6. Loss of control (due to icing or linkage failure)

7. Low altitude stall-spin

8. Major structural failure

9. Component failure resulting in an unflyable aircraft

10, Pilot incapacitation (heart attack) - brief passenger

11. Overshooting runway

 

The system can function at altitudes under 300 feet AGL for the Cessna 150 (the altitude to which FAA certified the system), and as low as 100 feet for ultralights. For the Cirrus it's around 600 ft agl, and for the Flight Design around 400 ft agl.  But if the engine fails on takeoff pulling the chute at any height is okay especially if the terrain ahead is deadly.

The 'single engine out' lines in the posted list above seem superfluous, isn't it just 'engine out' unless it was a multi-engine?

 

Another point, quite often the engine doesn't simply stop (fail) but  instead it will produce partial or reduced power. It may or may not eventually 'fail'. Depending on the amount of altitude to work with, working the problem, can mean returning to the field or making a controlled off-field landing. Carb ice, for example , can cause a power interruption which can often be cleared in certain aircraft.

 

In that case, does partial failure make the list for a chute pull?

 

Also, why isn't  ' inadvertent flight into IMC' included on the list ?

[Tom Baker]

#6, If I have loss of control I am not going to try and figure out what caused it. I am going to pull the chute.

[gbigs]

The 'single engine out' lines in the posted list above seem superfluous, isn't it just 'engine out' unless it was a multi-engine?

 

Another point, quite often the engine doesn't simply stop (fail) but  instead it will produce partial or reduced power. It may or may not eventually 'fail'. Depending on the amount of altitude to work with, working the problem, can mean returning to the field or making a controlled off-field landing. Carb ice, for example , can cause a power interruption which can often be cleared in certain aircraft.

 

In that case, does partial failure make the list for a chute pull?

 

Also, why isn't  ' inadvertent flight into IMC' included on the list ?

 

The single engine reference is opposed to planes with multi-engine, yes.

 

IMC can be solved by turning around...the Dynon Skyview autopilot has a 180 turnaround mode, for example.

 

Partial fail is very situation dependent...if the engine fails in part, does it have enough power to make it to a field or road? 

 

The list is meant to contain items that would require the chute pull without hesitation.  But it's my list.  Others may want to make their own, keep some of these items, delete others, or come up with more....  I only put this out as a starting point to ponder. 

 

When I fly I have these things in mind...and have the pin already pulled on the chute as part of pre-flight checks.  And if I am taking a passenger, I brief them on the pilot incapacitation so they have a fighting chance.

 

(note.  I just heard the Cirrus chute pull was the Walmart CEO and his friends in the plane)

[Top Cat]

  If the autopilot is inop then I would say flight into IMC is a chute pull situation. Even if it isn't inop the average time a non-instrument qualified pilot (or even non-current) can remain straight and level is measured in minutes. If the airplane is already departing from straight and level the autopilot might not be able to cope with suddenly being switched and asked to do a 'straight and level.

 

 I had a situation once in a Citabria whereby shortly after take-off when I went to reduce power the throttle came away in my hand and the engine remained stuck at full power. After level off there was nothing I could do to reduce power below full power.

 I elected to return to the field announced an emergency and on downwind with landing assured stopped the engine and landed with no power. I say this as it's a situation where the engine problem wasn't NO/partial power but rather FULL power. Had there been a chute I would have done the same thing, or, as it was in a rural area, elected to land off-field.

[FlyingMonkey]

I had an inadvertent VFR into IMC situation early on. Marginal visibility that turned out to be an unforecast cloud layer. Just before entering the cloud I could see the cloud boundaries and realized I had no way to avoid going in.

 

I immediately quit looking outside, and looked only at the attitude indication on the EFIS. I actually already started my 180 before I entered the cloud. I finished the turn, and popped back out within about 20-30 seconds and about 150 degrees of turn.. This is before I had an autopilot installed...had I not come out quickly I probably would have continued trying to fly by the EFIS, but as soon as that was in doubt I would have pulled.

 

I would say a deployment in IMC should not be "automatic", but it should be high up in the decision tree.

[IrishAl]

I'd like to ask the question again: does anyone on this forum practice engine outs?

 

It seems that overall, very few pilots do, yet if the value is evident, why not?

Does it cause some sort of uneasiness, or what?  I simply can't understand why so few pilots are reticent to practice a skill that will make all the difference in such an event.

 

Also, CTLSi - can you elaborate on the chute pull on the runway - it's a genuine question.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Al,

 

I have done true dead sticks from short final and working backwards to base, downwind and 5+ miles out.  With a field elevation above 7,000' its hard for me to practice very far out.  I used to land on the roads around here but now they leave snow steaks up on the road sides all year round and doing crow hops over the stakes is something I did when I was younger.

 

I also practice arriving above the pattern and circling above the key point.

 

My first plane had a 2-stroke and I was in the habit of turning it off and soaring thermals and ridge lift so the idea of the engine out isn't new to me.

 

My good friend flies a Europa with a 914 and a prop with a feather setting.  We kill the engine in it at 16,000' and 60 miles from home but restart for landing cause it has a mono-gear, like landing on a beach ball!

[Roger Lee]

Yes, I did for a number of years with the engine off in downwind in my SW. I haven't for a while, but for me they are just another landing with no go around option. I flew Ultralights for many years with a number of engine outs for real. They are like any normal landing.

I used to sponsor games with the Ultralights and one part was a true dead stick when you turned final. It made people actually practice and they all did good. If you weren't within 6' of the line with a dead stick you weren't in the top 4. CFI's usually won't do them because they aren't used to them either.

 

Once you do a few pretty soon that apprehension goes away and when it happens for real you're calm, relaxed and just looking for a spot.

 

If you are going to practice them don't do it at slow speeds. Keep a little extra speed, it won't hurt a thing. I wouldn't try them at all at a full stall landing.

 

p.s.

You want to hear a CFI cry and scream. Just shut the engine off when he isn't looking.????

[gbigs]

I'd like to ask the question again: does anyone on this forum practice engine outs?

 

It seems that overall, very few pilots do, yet if the value is evident, why not?

Does it cause some sort of uneasiness, or what?  I simply can't understand why so few pilots are reticent to practice a skill that will make all the difference in such an event.

 

Also, CTLSi - can you elaborate on the chute pull on the runway - it's a genuine question.

 

The chute pull on the runway is presumed to slow and possibly stop the plane in case of overrun.  I don't consider it an option unless I am on a runway with a dropoff at the end, like Sedona KSEZ.  The scenario is probably more a fit for a faster, heavier plane like a Cirrus SR22.