Jump to content

Cirrus SR22 Chute Pull


gbigs

Recommended Posts

If you are going to practice them don't do it at slow speeds. Keep a little extra speed, it won't hurt a thing. I wouldn't try them at all at a full stall landing.

 

Guess what Roger?  I disagree  :no-1012:

 

 

I like to come in high and then slip to hit my spot then a full stall landing.

 

When landing slow in a CT remember that if you run out of energy a wing is going to drop not the nose and you can control that rate of drop with opposite rudder.  If you practice falling leaf stalls you will have the skill to stop that wing from dropping.

 

Its important to minimize energy on dead stick landings because when the time comes to do the forced dead stick it will likely not be on a runway and rollout speed and rollout distance become big factors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 55
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Guess what Roger?  I disagree  :no-1012:

 

 

I like to come in high and then slip to hit my spot then a full stall landing.

 

When landing slow in a CT remember that if you run out of energy a wing is going to drop not the nose and you can control that rate of drop with opposite rudder.  If you practice falling leaf stalls you will have the skill to stop that wing from dropping.

 

Its important to minimize energy on dead stick landings because when the time comes to do the forced dead stick it will likely not be on a runway and rollout speed and rollout distance become big factors.

 

CT....I know you advocate stall landings...but I have never been able to do one without thumping the ground.  I do not fully understand how you do them, or why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CT....I know you advocate stall landings...but I have never been able to do one without thumping the ground.  I do not fully understand how you do them, or why?

 

I do them as well.  The reasoning is that you are minimizing the landing energy that has to be dissipated.  Less energy means less damage if something bad happens, like running off the runway edge (say due to a blown tire).

 

If you are "thumping" you are probably rounding out too high.  I found that to get the height right you have to "play chicken with the ground" a bit, and wait a moment more than is comfortable to start the round out.  You really are only a foot or two above the ground.

 

What happens if you round out too high/early, is you run out of energy too high above the ground, and it "drops in".  The CT runs out of energy *very* quickly, and then when it's done flying, it's REALLY done.  I call those "carrier landings".   :)

 

You can sense when the airplane is about to drop, and if you are a little high you can add a tiny bit (maybe 200-300rpm) of throttle, and that will cushion the descent without causing a balloon or float.  I did that a LOT when getting my technique down, now I rarely have to add any throttle. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How to full stall land without 'thumping':

  • Round out close to the ground
  • As sink develops counter it with aft stick
  • Get the stick full aft, if you are sinking slowly pull back slowly if you sink more rapidly pull back more rapidly
  • If a wing starts to drop counter it with opposite rudder
  • If you fail to control the sink with aft stick use throttle, or if you balloon you probably want to use throttle to counter sink.
  • use 30* flaps for a good view, less float and a slower speed.
  • upon contact note stick position, if not full aft work on that

Why do full stall landings?

  • Minimize energy in case of mishap
  • Save wear and tear on gear and airframe

Why do you 'thump'?

  • Probably because you bring the stick part of the way back and fail to counter the rapid sink that eventually happens.
  • When you thump note stick position, it is likely not full aft
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd like to ask the question again: does anyone on this forum practice engine outs?

I do.

 

Periodically I'll just choose a random altitude in gliding range of an airport and pull the power.

 

Because I practice it I'm fairly good at it.

 

My feelings on landing as slowly as possible, consistent with conditions, are both well known and consistent with FAA recommendations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

How to full stall land without 'thumping':

  • Round out close to the ground
  • As sink develops counter it with aft stick
  • Get the stick full aft, if you are sinking slowly pull back slowly if you sink more rapidly pull back more rapidly
  • If a wing starts to drop counter it with opposite rudder
  • If you fail to control the sink with aft stick use throttle, or if you balloon you probably want to use throttle to counter sink.
  • use 30* flaps for a good view, less float and a slower speed.
  • upon contact note stick position, if not full aft work on that

Why do full stall landings?

  • Minimize energy in case of mishap
  • Save wear and tear on gear and airframe

Why do you 'thump'?

  • Probably because you bring the stick part of the way back and fail to counter the rapid sink that eventually happens.
  • When you thump note stick position, it is likely not full aft

 

 

Thanks. I don't have the stick full back...I use 15 usually and use the speed to roll on, rather than drop on.  I will give your technique a try.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 "I found that to get the height right you have to "play chicken with the ground" a bit, and wait a moment more than is comfortable to start the round out.  You really are only a foot or two above the ground."  For what it's worth, this is what I do, literally fly it to the ground as slow as possible, with whatever flap setting I have chosen.

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I learned, and taught, to begin the roundout about one wingspan above the runway.

 

That gets you to just over the runway, where the level-off, or flare, begins.

 

I still hold that most landing problems trace back to looking in the wrong place - the pilot knows what he or she is supposed to do, but staring down the runway cannot accurately judge height - hence the "thump" that catches them by surprise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I learned, and taught, to begin the roundout about one wingspan above the runway.

 

That gets you to just over the runway, where the level-off, or flare, begins.

 

I still hold that most landing problems trace back to looking in the wrong place - the pilot knows what he or she is supposed to do, but staring down the runway cannot accurately judge height - hence the "thump" that catches them by surprise.

 

You can do that with the CT, but you really are just slowing the descent at that point.  The point of actually arresting the descent in a CT needs to occur pretty close to the ground.

 

Obviously I can't speak to the technique for the Sky Arrow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think also in something like Skyhawk, you *need* the higher roundout in order to control and dissipate the energy of the heavier airplane.  With the CT, that energy is less and can be dissipated more quickly.  Not sure if that is more broadly applicable across other LSA types.  Other than weight, it's probably dependent on flap setting and effectiveness, airfoil type/shape, wing loading, CG, and a lot of other things I'm not qualified to discuss in any detail.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My landings are by the book in the CT.   15 flaps, 62 over the numbers, the wheels usually touch in calm winds with the stick half back.  I do look down the runway, not right in front of the plane.  I have not had to change tires in 240 hours so far, they still look new.  The current set of brakes are also going over 200 hours now.

 

I do plan to try landing like CT does just for grins...a stall landing with 30 flaps...stick all the way back...but I have success with the book landings so I know I will use them as a standard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Burger, you could do full stall landings without changing anything in your technique...just continue working the stick back and try to keep the wheels just above the pavement until you run out of stick, at which point the airplane will naturally touch down at a lower speed than you are used to.  

 

You could try that as an intermediate step without changing anything else to get the "feel" of that style of landing.  In fact, if you do that a bit before going to the flaps 30 technique, I'd bet your landings when you do go there will be better. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Burgers, 

 

I don't think that's by the book.  Here's what my 'book' says:

 

post-6-0-70314800-1446838903_thumb.jpg

 

62Kts if Vfe (Maximum flap extended speed) for 30 and 40 degrees.

 

I don't have approach speeds in my POH so I use 1.3 x Vso for Normal landings which is ~53kts at max gross, slower when lighter. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Burgers, 

 

I don't think that's by the book.  Here's what my 'book' says:

 

62Kts if Vfe (Maximum flap extended speed) for 30 and 40 degrees.

 

I don't have approach speeds in my POH so I use 1.3 x Vso for Normal landings which is ~53kts at max gross, slower when lighter. 

 

CT, it may be the SW is different than the CT...

 

The POH for the CT  (note.  my over the numbers speed is 62kts, slowing to 50+ just before the mains touch):

post-940-0-06697900-1446848235_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That has been my experience as well.

Andy,

 

FWIW the approach and landing you showed me looked quite conventional - a roundout into ground effect and then holding the plane off in a flare. No different in principle than a 172. Or a Sky Arrow.

 

But enough CT pilots claim that some special technique is required that I suppose there must be a reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CT, it may be the SW is different than the CT...

 

The POH for the CT  (note.  my over the numbers speed is 62kts, slowing to 50+ just before the mains touch):

 

Judging  by your attachement  you are about 10kts fast as opposed to by the book.  Why not touchdown at less than 40kts as opposed to greater than 50kts?

 

Your attachment shows approach speeds as 55kts or 52kts, that's what I use.

 

In this video I am doing it by your book but touching down at 39kts.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Andy,

 

FWIW the approach and landing you showed me looked quite conventional - a roundout into ground effect and then holding the plane off in a flare. No different in principle than a 172. Or a Sky Arrow.

 

But enough CT pilots claim that some special technique is required that I suppose there must be a reason.

 

 

Eddie,

 

If I took you for a ride I could mimic a 172 landing but I would bank less, use less flaps and more speed and probably some power.  The power, speed and minimized drag will allow it to retain more energy and take away the need to round out extra low.

 

If I let you land, (I would) and you did it with 30* and a closed throttle you would see what we mean instantly.  You do need to be hands on to get the best feel for what we are talking about.

 

I assume your SkyArrow flies differently, I think a dirtier design can adopt a landing attitude with less ground clearance.  I round out low so I don't have to use the throttle to soften sink. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This subject has come up every 6 months for the last 7-8 years. It was discussed long before it was discussed here and probably since flight has been around. Just like flaps or no flaps on take off. There is no right or wrong here, just different ways.

 

It is one side of the fence or the other side. They both work or one side of the fence group would have all crashed. Why not just relize there is more than one way to skin a cat or land.

It all works as we are all prof that it does. Pick a side and don't pick on your brother next door because that is what your mother taught you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it's really that different, but in the CT everything happens lower and faster. Round out, flare, etc.

 

IMO of course.

 

EDIT: Roger, I don't think anybody in this thread is arguing right or wrong, we are just describing how we do things. As you say, there are lots of ways to successfully and safely land a CT. But everybody has a favorite technique and reasons that it works for them.

 

FWIW, I think the way Burger does it is a very predictable and repeatable technique. I just like a slower approach and touch down. Neither one of us has balled up an airplane on the runway yet, so either way works. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...