gbigs Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 The FAA has begun to take out the first of 500 VORs NAS wide. They are eventually getting rid of half, including half the VORs used in STARS and SIDS. GNSS will become the primary navigation system with NACOM becoming a back-up. Can't come soon enough. http://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-begins-vor-decommissioning-program?cmpid=enews120115&spPodID=030&spMailingID=24133940&spUserID=NDcyODMyMzM0MjUS1&spJobID=700094745&spReportId=NzAwMDk0NzQ1S0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Doesn't RNAV require a VOR? Makes great sense to remove redundant navaids as long as there is enough backup for when that solar storm (or some spotty teenager in his bedroom with a jamming device) takes out the satellite comms ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Anything reliable, including waypoints and tracks in a GPS system, can be used as RNAV reference points. Also, if VORs are so expensive, then why not revisit ADF and give it a tech upgrade? Make it digital and it will be pretty damn reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted December 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Doesn't RNAV require a VOR? Makes great sense to remove redundant navaids as long as there is enough backup for when that solar storm (or some spotty teenager in his bedroom with a jamming device) takes out the satellite comms ! Most use the term RNAV to refer to GPS navigation and no one seems to know what the acronym actually stands for (Random Navigation?), so I changed the reference to GNSS to be more technical regarding GPS in specific. If you look at approach plates for an airport, the GPS approaches all says RNAV/GPS https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gnss/library/factsheets/media/RNAV_QFSheet.pdf The FAA says 90% of the VORs are in such bad shape it would require $1 billion bucks to get them into shape. They are taking out half and leaving half because they contend this is the minimum needed to have as a BACKUP navigation system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 OK thanks - the last time I used RNAV (which I understood to be aRea Navigation) was many years ago when my instrument rating was current and then it was just the ability to "move" the position of a VOR - very useful. The move to more and more reliance on GPS does worry me. About 5 years ago the RAF carried out a series of tests down the west coast of the UK to see how easy it was to take out the GPS signal - the result was that it is frighteningly easy to jam GPS due to the very low strength of the signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 There are frequent NOTAM'ed GPS outages or areas of unreliable signal for GPS, when maintenance to the GPS satellite cluster occurs or there is testing of ground equipment that can interfere with the signal. The last one I recall seeing was a circle over 300 miles in diameter. With half the VORs taken out, I can imagine a "perfect storm" scenario where you are in a GPS outage, and at an altitude/range where you have no reception to any VOR station. That brings most light airplanes down to a map and compass (not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just more error prone). Redundancy is a very good thing in navigation, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 There are frequent NOTAM'ed GPS outages The last one I recall seeing was a circle over 300 miles in diameter. Wouldn't you have service from GLONASS in those areas of GPS outage, or am I missing someting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Only if your reciever recieves it, and if whatever is causing the gps outage isn't affecting GLONASS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted December 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 There are frequent NOTAM'ed GPS outages or areas of unreliable signal for GPS, when maintenance to the GPS satellite cluster occurs or there is testing of ground equipment that can interfere with the signal. The last one I recall seeing was a circle over 300 miles in diameter. With half the VORs taken out, I can imagine a "perfect storm" scenario where you are in a GPS outage, and at an altitude/range where you have no reception to any VOR station. That brings most light airplanes down to a map and compass (not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just more error prone). Redundancy is a very good thing in navigation, IMO. VORs also go down each month for maint. and sometimes break and are down for extended periods. That's why under IFR you are required to verify each VOR you encounter with morse code ID. Also, the DME portion can break...hearing the DME tone is also required. NOTAMS are issued for such equipment outages including NDB, ILS and VORs referenced in IAPs. The big change here is the NAVAID (VOR/NDB) system becomes a BACKUP to GNSS after the FAA pulls down half of the installed base. Today, GNSS and the NAVAID system are peers with new Q and T routes being added monthly presumed to be navigated using GPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 VORs also go down each month for maint. and sometimes break and are down for extended periods. That's why under IFR you are required to verify each VOR you encounter with morse code ID. Also, the DME portion can break...hearing the DME tone is also required. NOTAMS are issued for such equipment outages including NDB, ILS and VORs referenced in IAPs. Agreed, but VORs don't go down in a 300 mile circle like GPS sometimes does. GPS usually works beautifully, I just think having a good backup system is smart. I have not seen a proposed map of the VORs that would remain in service, but I'm guessing if 50% go away there will be some coverage gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 VORs don't only serve day VFR pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 You are a day VFR pilot. And I don't have a VOR head in my plane. I was speaking about navigation generally, not about me personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 VORs do serve people getting their private checkrides in an LSA. It also serves people getting their instrument ratings. Hell, I like dialing one in and fiddling once in a while! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 This is self-explanatory. I think we all know what VOR's are. I've been using them for 50 years, 40 years as an instrument rated pilot. ... You just argued with yourself? Did you click the wrong quote button? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Then you will love Skyview, version 12.0 and later, which has a feature of turning any GPS waypoint into an OBS course. Really slick. Though not easy, even a lowly 496 can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I actually did a little step-by-step photo essay on how to do this*. IIRC, you create a waypoint some distance from the VOR waypoint on the desired "radial". You can then use the faux CDI on the display to track the "radial". No doubt Skyview does it much more elegantly. *See if this takes you to the photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/28544803@N08/albums/72157634184572716 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Jefts Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I can remember back in "the old days" navigating the Pacific with a sextant sticking out the top of the plane. We had some Loran signals but they were only good for 300 miles or so, then there was Consolan if you were headed toward the East coast of the US or the West Coast. If you were headed to American Samoa you could always dial in a local radio station and sometimes get an ADF on one. Other than that you were destined to use your E6B and Dead Reconing. This means you compute your ground speed and apply whatever drift you think you have by shooting sun or moon lines during the day and the stars at night and then compare those results to your "best guess" . There are some of us that can still get around without all the fancy stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 The passing of ADF receivers is very sad - many a Saturday afternoon flying back to home base I've tuned in to BBC medium wave to get the football results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted December 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I can remember back in "the old days" navigating the Pacific with a sextant sticking out the top of the plane. We had some Loran signals but they were only good for 300 miles or so, then there was Consolan if you were headed toward the East coast of the US or the West Coast. If you were headed to American Samoa you could always dial in a local radio station and sometimes get an ADF on one. Other than that you were destined to use your E6B and Dead Reconing. This means you compute your ground speed and apply whatever drift you think you have by shooting sun or moon lines during the day and the stars at night and then compare those results to your "best guess" . There are some of us that can still get around without all the fancy stuff. You were doing it like Amelia and Columbus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Thanks Eddy. I did view the pics and I am familiar with the G-396, but seldom use it, other than as a good backup. No doubt you can navigate a VOR course radial that way, but it is a stretch to consider it an "OBS." I cannot remember the last time I used that feature. If ATC ever wanted you to fly a given radial, you could just fly an intercept angle and wait until your bearing from or to the station agreed with the radial course, then turn to maintain that bearing. But like I said, it really does not come up in the kind of day VFR flying I do, even on long cross countries and even in busy airspace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 And, of course, if you have WingXPro7 or Foreflight on an iPad (or equivalent), just fly your little plane aong the Victor Airway as depicted on the chart! Easy Peasy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 For the average pilot, I think the tablet is revolutionary, with or without GPS. Even under combat conditions, I can see where the tablet would have made flying much more efficient and easier. By far, it is the best device in my airplane. Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I have enough on my panel where supplementing with a tablet is backup not at all the best thing I have. The tablet is an incredible supplement but unless you have a strategically located mount its not primary. I have always had a big nav display backed up by my 496 in my panel. I use my tablet mostly to confirm frequencies are current. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted December 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I have enough on my panel where supplementing with a tablet is backup not at all the best thing I have. The tablet is an incredible supplement but unless you have a strategically located mount its not primary. I have always had a big nav display backed up by my 496 in my panel. I use my tablet mostly to confirm frequencies are current. Yes, I agree. The tablets are fine for EFB and maybe a backup GPS nav display. But the panel should have your primary instruments including GPS/WAAS. Australia has started decommissioning 181 navaids across the country. (VOR’s and NDB’s). http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projects/nrp/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecapt Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Hey, Duane Jefts. Remember the Coast Guard ship that was ON STATION halfway to HNL ? Can't remember the name of the station, but we used to let the flight attendants talk to the sailors onboard, and make a date to meet them the next time they were on leave in HNL. Yeah, I remember the navigator's periscope sticking out the top of the DC-8 RET 1995 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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