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USA registration question

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Happy New Year, all.

 

Question from a CT buddy, for my neighbours down south (Northwest, too!)

 

Is there a registration category in which US based CT's can be flown with -12 and variable pitch?

thanks

mike

 

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If it went to ELSA you should be able to do it. The -12 is more based on its clean stall speed having to be no more than 45 knots and of course the top end at 120 knots or less. 

There are people in the US using -12, but that's their personal decision. For the times I have flown -12 it does stall less than 45.

 

 

Variable pitch isn't going to happen in the LSA world unless there is a major upset in the regs.

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Thanks, guys.

I-CEY (2003 CT2K)  is safely tucked away this winter :( , but I know of a pristine 2005 CTSW that is for sale up here, but not well advertised.  always hangared, 1300+ hours, with a new 912ULS. Well travelled and immaculate, it has -12 and a Kaspar variable pitch  prop (may even be electric constant speed, I'd have to check)  Anyways, with the US$ dollar exchange rate surging there might be room down in your fine country for this gem of an "experimental"  at a good price. 

 

meanwhile, my time is relegated to fishing.........

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It can never be an E-LSA or an E-AB, so I think that precludes it from being registered in the US.

 

Other than the Experimental - Exhibition that Tom mentioned, which makes it unusable for most normal missions.

 

I think.

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If it went to ELSA you should be able to do it. The -12 is more based on its clean stall speed having to be no more than 45 knots and of course the top end at 120 knots or less.

There are people in the US using -12, but that's their personal decision. For the times I have flown -12 it does stall less than 45.

 

 

Variable pitch isn't going to happen in the LSA world unless there is a major upset in the regs.

Roger, there is no regulatory path to register it as a ELSA, especially since it has had a airworthiness certificate issued in Canada.

 

As for -12 flaps, the stall speed that matters is not indicated but calibrated.

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Variable pitch isn't going to happen in the LSA world unless there is a major upset in the regs.

I think the regs need to be upset. CAFE standards for cars have produced 8 speed transmissions for reduced emissions and fuel usage, yet for LSA they want to lock us in 2nd gear. No 1st gear for a reduced ground roll, no 2nd gear for improved speed for climb, and most important, no 3rd gear for fuel efficient cruise, lower noise, and less engine wear.

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No arguement from me. I think variable pitch props for LSA should be allowed. It just isn't that big a deal and speeds up to 180-200 should be allowed.

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I think the regs need to be upset. CAFE standards for cars have produced 8 speed transmissions for reduced emissions and fuel usage, yet for LSA they want to lock us in 2nd gear. No 1st gear for a reduced ground roll, no 2nd gear for improved speed for climb, and most important, no 3rd gear for fuel efficient cruise, lower noise, and less engine wear.

 

That's true, but there is only one category of cars called, well...cars.  There are no performance limits set on the vehicles (though there are some set on the roads).

 

For LSA, there are limits on performance, in place by the FAA.  But what was revolutionary about LSA is that the FAA basically said "other than the performance limits that we set, we are not going to tell you how you are allowed to do that".  They handed the whole regulatory structure off to the ASTM.  This is great from a government regulatory standpoint, but overall has been a bit of a mixed bag.

 

S-LSA do not have to meet FAR Part 23 airworthiness requirements.  The certification process is onerous and expensive, so that is a plus.

 

On the downside, there is no real LSA equivalent to a form 337 for field approval of a modification.  There is also no alternative to factory parts in many cases.  ASTM relies on the manufacturers to say what is allowable, and there is no appeal from that if a manufacturer balks.

 

The prohibition of CS props might be a practical consideration.  There would probably be no way to police the LSA speed limits if CS props were in use.  A manufacturer could claim LSA compliance by testing with prop settings far outside the efficient range of the prop, but then in practice you could be seeing 150kt LSAs burning up the sky.

 

IMO, the LSA 120kt speed restriction really makes little sense.  Aircraft performance is so variable that the limit is meaningless.  With a good tailwind we can easily be seeing ground speeds of 140kt or more, and I regularly see speeds in excess of 120kt TAS.  I understand that the limit is in CAS, but there is never a calibrated, sea level atmosphere around when you need one...

 

The idea is to reduce energy and thus crash effects, but there is not much difference between a crash or midair at 120kt and one at 150kt.  Both leave smoking holes and are not survivable.  The LSA stall limit makes sense, because reduced energy on landing *can* add safety benefits.

 

In my ideal world, the FAA & ASTM would scrap the 120kt speed limit for LSAs and remove any equipment limitations.  I'd be fine with them keeping the stall speed and IFR flight restrictions.

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I finally found the spec sheet that compares performance of the Pipistrel Virus SW vs Virus SW SLA, and needless to say, a lot is given up for that SLA fixed pitch prop. The non SLA compliant specs in bold font.

 

100 hp Rotax

 

SW / SW SLA

 

Vh 153 kt / 120 kt

 

75% cruise 147 kt / 118 kt

 

Vb  130 kt / 120 kt

 

But here is a real zinger, when you pitch so fine as to limit speed, you would think rate of climb to be outstanding, and while it is quite good, the adjustable pitch prop can go even finer for take off.

 

Rate of climb  1680 fpm / 1020 fpm

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It might not all be in the prop.  The LSA version might also have draggier fairings and extended wingtips.  Those are common ways to slow things down.  I doubt that there would be a 30 knot difference just from using a CS prop on a 100hp engine.  More like 10 knots.

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It might not all be in the prop.  The LSA version might also have draggier fairings and extended wingtips.  Those are common ways to slow things down.  I doubt that there would be a 30 knot difference just from using a CS prop on a 100hp engine.  More like 10 knots.

Andy,

 

  That is why I picked the Pipistrel Virus SW as my example for performance of the same aircraft with and without variable pitch prop. This aircraft has won NASA's efficiency challenges for two consecutive years and as such represents the pinnacle of efficiency. For an aircraft as slippery as this, prop pitch is a major part of the equation. All other Pipistrels except the SW and Alpha Trainer have deployable lift spoilers to aid in getting down to land. The SW has it as an option, and most that I have found have it. You have to remember that at 133 kt the SW is sipping 3.6 gph for 37 nmpg. That is efficient. If you slow to 85 kt, fuel consumption drops to 1.4 gph for 61 nmpg, giving a butt numbing range of 1513 nm on 24.8 usable gallons.

 

http://pipistrel-usa.com/info-pack/Pipistrel-VirusSW-Information-Pack.pdf

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Thanks for the feedback.  Looks like it will have to remain a Canadian registration.

What I find interesting is that the very same aircraft equipped with -12 and variable pitch prop is permitted and welcome to fly your beautiful sky as a visitor.  this one has several hundred hours down there!

I guess it must be the exceptional skills and qualifications of those northern pilots that your FAA recognizes. :shoot_me-1022:

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Icey, I find it interesting that we Sport Pilots from down here are not allowed to fly up there. I have met a number of good Canadian folks who have flown down from the Winnipeg area (including Jill Oakes, one of the winners of this year's Northern Lights awards) to ND and MN but I cannot fly up there. Is the reason because of the medical issue? To whom could I appeal for a change in the rules?

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Icey, I find it interesting that we Sport Pilots from down here are not allowed to fly up there. I have met a number of good Canadian folks who have flown down from the Winnipeg area (including Jill Oakes, one of the winners of this year's Northern Lights awards) to ND and MN but I cannot fly up there. Is the reason because of the medical issue? To whom could I appeal for a change in the rules?

 

Doug, I think it's because Canada relies on ICAO rules, which require a medical.  My Sport Pilot license clearly says on the back "does not meet ICAO requirements."  Private Pilots on a DL medical may or may not have the same issue.

 

Canada would need to provide for an exemption to their ICAO requirements for US DL medicals.

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Andy, I knew about the ICAO comment on the license, but was not aware that was the issue in Canada.

I was hoping Icey would comment since he is Canadian, and may be able to provide a different perspective on this.

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There is the plane and there is the pilot.
 
The plane [ S-SLS or E-LSA ] can be flown in Canadian airspace , if it carry the attached document
see lign # 6
 
since the document start with ''Pursuant to section 507.05 of the Canadian Aviation Régulations "

 

here is the link to it:

 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part5-standards-507s-1804.htm#507s_05
 
as for the pilot, it needs a LICENCE and a MEDICAL but I don't find the rule for that..but that,s we are being told 

here is the info from COPA ( Canadian Owners & Pilots Association )

https://www.copanational.org/CAWMay10-1En.cfm

 

 

LSA in Canada.doc

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I believe this issue is reciprocal.  The US will not allow any Canadian pilot to fly into the US unless they hold a Private license or higher.

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Did not know that. Maybe there needs to be an effort on both sides of the boarder to change that. What do you all think?

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I believe this issue is reciprocal.  The US will not allow any Canadian pilot to fly into the US unless they hold a Private license or higher.

Not exactly exact.

see attached document

 

''by pilots who hold at least a

Canadian Private Pilot License-Aeroplane, Canadian Pilot Permit- Recreational

Aeroplane, or Canadian Pilot Permit Ultralight Aeroplane endorsed with Flight

Instructor Rating,"

 

BUT  that was before yesterday....as a new FAA NOTAM just came out asking special weaver even for just ''flying over ''

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_5_6289.html

 

https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/files/pdf/arinc_-_summary_of_recent_tsa_waiver_changes.pdf

 

yeurk !

USA authorization.pdf

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Thanks for the clarification Jacques.  It is interesting that the US LSA regulations were initially based on the Canadian Ultralight rules, but they didn't keep the best parts; no speed limit and variable pitch or constant speed props.

 

I agree with Doug that crossing the border should be a much easier process than it is.

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