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revise the sport pilot program


kgassmann

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i was a little disappointed in the watered down version of the private pilot regs...was thinking it would end up more or less along the lines of the sport pilot license req's.

 

has there ever been any thought to just changing the sport license program?

 

i'd be happy if i could just fly and night and say take 4 people aloft....anyone?

 

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i was a little disappointed in the watered down version of the private pilot regs...was thinking it would end up more or less along the lines of the sport pilot license req's.

 

has there ever been any thought to just changing the sport license program?

 

i'd be happy if i could just fly and night and say take 4 people aloft....anyone?

 

Part of the reason why the requirements were reduced, was to remove flying at night. If you want that back in, you're going to end up with a requirement to train for it. Same with flying over clouds; the instrument navigation training is removed so you can't fly over cloud layers.

 

As for 4 seats... well that one I'm not sure about. I don't see a whole lot of difference between 2 and 4 seats other than where W&B is concerned, and honestly, LSAs are harder to handle than many 4 seat aircraft, loaded or empty, so this one I might agree with. However, there would probably be an endorsement if you went this route.

 

We have to remember that light sport was originally going to address the issue with "fat" ultralights. Weight was going to be severely limited, but the FAA caved into pressure to bring it to the 600kg european limit. I suspect that the FAA was NOT expecting the kind of equipment being rolled out as LSA.

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I agree that night flying would be nice, if for no other reason than landing after sunset, especially in the winter when the sun goes down early.

 

Four people for Sport Pilots is not going to happen.  The whole SP/LSA structure was built around two seats and 1320lb gross weight.  To allow more passengers means they will have to increase gross weight and it opens a whole can of worms that the FAA is not willing to dig into for the relatively few Sport Pilots out there.

 

I doubt FAA will give much thought going forward to Sport Pilot rules changes.  In their minds they have fixed all of these problems with the new "you have to have a medical to fly without a medical" rule, and won't revisit the issue for at least a decade.

 

Just my opinion, but I think it's pretty accurate.  Once the SP rules came about in 2005, the new changes for private pilots didn't happen until 2016.  About every ten years seems to be FAA's time frame for considering making pilots' lives easier. 

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i was a little disappointed in the watered down version of the private pilot regs...was thinking it would end up more or less along the lines of the sport pilot license req's.

 

has there ever been any thought to just changing the sport license program?

 

i'd be happy if i could just fly and night and say take 4 people aloft....anyone?

 

You won't see night flying in a sport pilot license.  Most see night flying as similar to flying in IMC.  The key part is no visual reference to the ground which can happen on a moonless night in the middle of the desert or over a stretch of water.

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I'll second that. While ferrying my plane from OK to AZ, I and Wilson (YouTube 'Cardinal Pilot' CPL) did more night flight than we wanted. It was jet black out there with only the ACL reflection blinking on our faces as we hunched over the 696. Best sight ever was seeing pilot activated runway lights blaze to life in the middle of total blackness.

 

I don't think the FAA will opening LSA to night or 4 people anytime soon. To me it looked like Recreational pilot 2.0 (are there any Rec pilots?).

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Yet the PP requirements training wise really doesn't "prepare" you for the night conditions you guys are talking about (moonless, no lights etc. no ground reference)

 

There will always be some gaps that could be filled better. It would be cool to see them ease up on SP/LSA limitations a little (maybe a gross weight bump), but if they allow too much more, they will also require more of something... always a catch. Too bad the PP/3rd class stuff got watered down as much as it did. I almost couldn't believe how much it was going to get changed! and sadly.. it didn't happen.. though progress is progress.

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Yet the PP requirements training wise really doesn't "prepare" you for the night conditions you guys are talking about (moonless, no lights etc. no ground reference)

 

There will always be some gaps that could be filled better. It would be cool to see them ease up on SP/LSA limitations a little (maybe a gross weight bump), but if they allow too much more, they will also require more of something... always a catch. Too bad the PP/3rd class stuff got watered down as much as it did. I almost couldn't believe how much it was going to get changed! and sadly.. it didn't happen.. though progress is progress.

Depends who does you PP night cross country.  I had to fly into Lovelock, NV.  KLOL....check it on google.  Not a light in sight and the little tower beacon was out.  The runway lights were half broken, and there was one little lonely small red light at the corner of the threshold you couldn't see until 100 feet from the runway.  I was only able to find the airport on my GPS nav.

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Depends who does you PP night cross country.  I had to fly into Lovelock, NV.  KLOL....check it on google.  Not a light in sight and the little tower beacon was out.  The runway lights were half broken, and there was one little lonely small red light at the corner of the threshold you couldn't see until 100 feet from the runway.  I was only able to find the airport on my GPS nav.

 

k

 

 

and not everyone gets that training, because it's not a requirement...

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k

 

 

and not everyone gets that training, because it's not a requirement...

 

The night cross country is a requirement for the PPL.   

 

61.109   

3 hours of night flight training in a single engine airplane, that includes at least-

a. 1 cross-country flight of over 100 nm. total distance; and

b. 10 takeoffs and 10 landings with each involving a flight in the traffic pattern.

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The night cross country is a requirement for the PPL.   

 

61.109   

3 hours of night flight training in a single engine airplane, that includes at least-

a. 1 cross-country flight of over 100 nm. total distance; and

b. 10 takeoffs and 10 landings with each involving a flight in the traffic pattern.

 

I'm aware of the requirements.

 

This does not mean a trainee is guaranteed to encounter:

 

 

 

The key part is no visual reference to the ground which can happen on a moonless night in the middle of the desert or over a stretch of water.

 

Still not sure what your arguing about. Point was that a PP license doesn't turn you into an IFR pilot. Your point about the above conditions being similar to IMC was not in question.

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Depends who does you PP night cross country.  I had to fly into Lovelock, NV.  KLOL....check it on google.  Not a light in sight and the little tower beacon was out.  The runway lights were half broken, and there was one little lonely small red light at the corner of the threshold you couldn't see until 100 feet from the runway.  I was only able to find the airport on my GPS nav.

Should have been NOTAM'ed and you should have stayed home.  I would have.

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I'm aware of the requirements.

 

This does not mean a trainee is guaranteed to encounter:

 

 

Still not sure what your arguing about. Point was that a PP license doesn't turn you into an IFR pilot. Your point about the above conditions being similar to IMC was not in question.

 

Not arguing.   And I never made the assertion that a PPL student is trained to fly in IMC.    The FAA requires the night work and the endorsement before the PPL checkride can be taken.   And once licensed must make 3 takeoffs and 3 landings at night within the prior 90 days from then on.  Night flying experience does prepare one to deal with IMC in a more substantial way since you can't see the clouds at night and are more likely to encounter it.  This is a big reason most PPs are encouraged and do eventually get an instrument rating.

 

Sport Pilots by definition will never be allowed to fly at night in large part because they must always have visual reference to the ground....and no Sport Pilot can train for or get an instrument rating so advancing those skills is also senseless for them...

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Should have been NOTAM'ed and you should have stayed home.  I would have.

 

There was no NOTAM and I was a student on the night dual-cross-country not the PIC.  The CFI made the decision on the flight and on the landing.

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Not arguing.   And I never made the assertion that a PPL student is trained to fly in IMC.    The FAA requires the night work and the endorsement before the PPL checkride can be taken.   And once licensed must make 3 takeoffs and 3 landings at night within the prior 90 days from then on.  Night flying experience does prepare one to deal with IMC in a more substantial way since you can't see the clouds at night and are more likely to encounter it.  This is a big reason most PPs are encouraged and do eventually get an instrument rating.

 

Sport Pilots by definition will never be allowed to fly at night in large part because they must always have visual reference to the ground....and no Sport Pilot can train for or get an instrument rating so advancing those skills is also senseless for them...

 

This is getting a little silly at this point. So I will try just one more time, and then I'm moving on to something else.

 

The point being made was very simple. a SP is not allowed to fly at night, in fact he/she has to hang up the headset before it even gets dark. But with just a few hours of night flying training, and a little hood time, a PP is given the green light to fly in the dark which can include pitch black, non horizon, IMC like conditions as you had pointed out. And no I don't think Private Pilot's should be more limited, it was just an observation about the small differences in training, and the large differences in privileges and limitations of the two licenses.

 

When your done reciting FARs, and then mixing in your opinions like they are facts.... step back, you will realize I wasn't attacking you here, disagreeing originally, or trying to claim anything anyone said was incorrect. It was a simple observation about some of the strange gaps in the regulations, as I mentioned earlier.

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Sport Pilots by definition will never be allowed to fly at night in large part because they must always have visual reference to the ground....and no Sport Pilot can train for or get an instrument rating so advancing those skills is also senseless for them...

 

It is called "night VFR" not "IFR".  Any pilot flying VFR should have reference to the ground, it's his responsibility to ensure flight conditions allow this, whether flying day or night.  At night the references may be by ground lights, horizon, stars etc.  If you are fyling into a black hole with no horizon, you are no longer flying VFR, make no mistake.

 

Night VFR is not "IMC light"...if you are treating it that way, you are doing it wrong.

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It is called "night VFR" not "IFR".  Any pilot flying VFR should have reference to the ground, it's his responsibility to ensure flight conditions allow this, whether flying day or night.  At night the references may be by ground lights, horizon, stars etc.  If you are fyling into a black hole with no horizon, you are no longer flying VFR, make no mistake.

 

Night VFR is not "IMC light"...if you are treating it that way, you are doing it wrong.

 

On a dark moonless night over the desert you will not be able to see the ground.  The same problem occurs over water - it's what happened to John Kennedy Jr.

 

It's not called night VFR, it's called night dual-cross country.  The training, if you are curious involves learning about the sensory and biological problems associated with night flying.  Here is a complete treatment of the subject:  https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp14112-hazards-ppt-6035.htm

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On a dark moonless night over the desert you will not be able to see the ground.  The same problem occurs over water - it's what happened to John Kennedy Jr.

 

It's not called night VFR, it's called night dual-cross country.  The training, if you are curious involves learning about the sensory and biological problems associated with night flying.  Here is a complete treatment of the subject:  https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp14112-hazards-ppt-6035.htm

 

Uh, I'm very familiar, thanks.

 

It is VFR, unless you are filing and flying IFR.  If you expect to have no lights on the ground, no horizon, or any other references to fly by, you should be filing an IFR flight plan or staying on the ground.

 

Many non-instrument rated, VFR pilots fly safely at night.  Having the night training required for a PP is not at all the same thing as IFR training.  I have no idea why you seem to think a SP with the same night training and an endorsement would be any less safe than a PP under those conditions.

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The FAA is just filled with inconsistencies and downright daffy ideas. Anytime you need a laugh, just read the Recreational pilot capabilities and restrictions. When I was taking my sport training, I asked my CFI whether he felt the sport requirements were too light or the PPL were too heavy, because I couldn't see a whole lot of difference (other than hours and night). He laughed and said they were both too light as far a he was concerned. In the end I took my checkride at 57 hours, which the flight school considered about typical. For them PPL's ran about 80 hours on average. My DPE was a little hazy on light sport requirements (such as SVFR), so he just tested the same as he would for PPL. And of course the CFI trained me the same as a PPL. So except for the night flight and maybe some hood time, there was little difference.

 

I'd really hate to meet a guy up there who really only had 20 hours flight time, yikes!

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Here is a table showing the difference between Private, Recreational and Sport:  http://www.aopa.org/Advocacy/Regulatory-,-a-,-Certification-Policy/Quick-comparison-of-pilot-certificates

 

The major difference in training is the night cross country, a longer solo cross country and 3 hours of under hood for Private versus no night and 1 hour under hood for Sport.  You require a 3rd class med or better for Private and may also have one for Sport but can also fly on Sport with just a DL and no medical exam.

 

The FAA says it takes about 70 hours to get the Private and 33 hours to get the Sport.   Why get a Sport versus a Private if you can pass the medical?  Cost in extra training and no need to fly with more than one other person or in an aircraft that weighs more than 1300 lbs gross. 

 

Sport flyers may not fly in IMC or SVFR and may not train for or obtain an IR (must have 3 miles visibility and not above 10k feet and with visual reference to the ground at all times).  Sport are also restricted from flying outside the USA.

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Sigh...we all know the differences between a PP and SP.  This thread is about what we think they *should* be, not about what they *are*.

 

EDIT:  BTW, Sport pilots are not prohibited from flying outside the USA; we can fly to any country that recognizes and accepts the certificate.  The Bahamas allow it, and I think I heard Cuba might.  It's based on the destination country's rules, there is no FAA restriction on Sport Pilots leaving the USA.

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Sigh...we all know the differences between a PP and SP.  This thread is about what we think they *should* be, not about what they *are*.

 

EDIT:  BTW, Sport pilots are not prohibited from flying outside the USA; we can fly to any country that recognizes and accepts the certificate.  The Bahamas allow it, and I think I heard Cuba might.  It's based on the destination country's rules, there is no FAA restriction on Sport Pilots leaving the USA.  So I guess I was wrong, we don't all know the differences.  :)

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Sigh...we all know the differences between a PP and SP.  This thread is about what we think they *should* be, not about what they *are*.

 

EDIT:  BTW, Sport pilots are not prohibited from flying outside the USA; we can fly to any country that recognizes and accepts the certificate.  The Bahamas allow it, and I think I heard Cuba might.  It's based on the destination country's rules, there is no FAA restriction on Sport Pilots leaving the USA.

 

The thread is about expanding the privileges of Sport Pilot to include a privilege now assigned to Private Pilot and above.  A review and comparison of those is warranted.

 

A Sport Pilot may NOT act as pilot in command of a light sport aircraft:

  • That is carrying a passenger or property for compensation or hire.
  • For compensation or hire.
  • In furtherance of a business.
  • While carrying more than one passenger.
  • At night.
  • In Class A airspace.
  • In Class B, C, or D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, and to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower unless you have received ground and flight training and a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor in accordance with 61.325 certifying you are authorized to exercise these privileges.
  • Outside the United States, unless you have prior authorization from the country in which you seek to operate. A sport pilot certificate carries the limitation "Holder does not meet ICAO requirements."  (Canada requires ICAO compliance).  The issue is ICAO and the medical for most countries.
  • In a passenger-carrying airlift sponsored by a charitable organization.
  • At an altitude of more than 10,000 feet msl.
  • When the flight or surface visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
  • Without visual reference to the surface.
  • If the aircraft has a maximum forward speed in level flight that exceeds 87 knots CAS, unless having met the requirements of 61.327.
  • Contrary to any operating limitation placed on the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft being flown.
  • Contrary to any limitation or endorsement on your pilot certificate, airman medical certificate, U.S. driver's license, or any other limitation or logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor.
  • Contrary to any restriction or limitation on the sport pilot's U.S. driver's license or any restriction or limitation imposed by judicial or administrative order when using a driver's license to satisfy the requirements of Part 61.
  • While towing any object.
  • As a pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
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