Value of a 2010 CTLS?

[Scott Lee]

I've had my CTLS for a year and I'm thinking of upgrading to a Tecnam P2008.  If I upgrade then I expect to trade in my CT.

 

My plane is in for it's annual inspection and installed a 796 with a Garmin GDL-39 3D to get ADSB-in, but I don't have ADSB out. I have about 450 hours on the plane.  I have the dual 10" Dynon Skyview and a Digiflight autopilot.

 

The plane is in terrific shape.  The gearbox was inspected so it won't need to be inspected until 1,000 hours. The props won't need to be inspected until 1,350 hours.  The chute is due for repacking August 2017.  The battery was recently replaced. Brakes were replaced.

 

I bought the plane June 2015 for $123,000.

 

Anyone with experience trading in a plane have some guidance on what my plane is worth wholesale?

 

I politely ask that only people with real-world experience with trades, or a recent purchase express a value opinion, or prior experience with a valuation service.

 

To answer the obvious question of "why",  it's a bunch of little things.  Having luggage behind the seats and accessible in flight.  Wall to wall carpet with a nicer interior finish.  No openings in the cabin for access to sight tubes and bolts.  Better adjust-ability and positioning of the seats.  Having a 914 turbo which is has more power on take off, quicker climb to altitude but quieter and smoother in cruise.  

 

I love my CT, but it was always going to be my first plane, not last or final.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Looks like a nice upgrade.  5 minutes at 115% power is a real game changer.  I bet I would cheat on the 5 minutes so I could use it to climb all the way to 14,000'

 

My guess is that the timing is bad to get a good price for you CT but that might be offset by getting a good price on the 2008.

[FastEddieB]

Two general guidelines on trade-ins...

 

1) They tend to complicate what you're really getting for your old plane. The only way to simplify it is to tell the seller you are a cash buyer, and negotiate the best cash price. Only then bring up the trade. The real amount you're getting for the trade is then apparent.

 

2) Sales tax can come into play. I see IL has a 6.25% rate, possibly higher in some municipalities. If it applies to aircraft, then typically you only pay tax on the difference between the new plane and the trade-in, possibly saving thousands of dollars. That may offset taking a slightly lower trade-in value than you think you could sell the plane for on the open market, not to mention eliminating the hassle factor of selling a used plane yourself.

 

At least two conflicting factors may come into play right now. With new CT's very difficult to get, that should drag up the prices of used ones. Then again, Flight Design's problems may be dragging prices down - uncertainty is never helpful. Even Cecil, one of Flight Design's biggest fanbois, had to admit the real or perceived problems with FD Germany going forward made it harder for him to sell his plane for the price he thought it was worth.

[gbigs]

The plane is in terrific shape but as regular readers may recall I had a couple hard landings and replaced both landing legs as well as all 3 props from a strike. 

 

I love my CT, but it was always going to be my first plane, not last or final.

 

A CT with hard landings and mangled mains and prop will slice off value from the plane.

 

Tecnam has had quality issues, suggest you talk to an objective former owner of one before you leap.  They are also cramped, have wing struts, still cruise at the same SLSA speeds, has less range, less useful load and the avionics are no better than in your CT.   A turbo in an SLSA is a waste of money...you can't fly above 12k feet anyway.

[Ed Cesnalis]

  A turbo in an SLSA is a waste of money...you can't fly above 12k feet anyway.

 

Sacrilege!  

[FastEddieB]

Sea level MP at 9,500' is nothing to sneeze at.

[Scott Lee]

 

Tecnam has had quality issues, suggest you talk to an objective former owner of one before you leap.  They are also cramped, have wing struts, still cruise at the same SLSA speeds, has less range, less useful load and the avionics are no better than in your CT.   A turbo in an SLSA is a waste of money...you can't fly above 12k feet anyway.

 

 

Also good advice on Tecnam, I read some of the same comments online as you.  However what I found is that those comments are old and predate Tecnam opening their facility in Florida.  I spoke with three owners all of whom love their planes and rave about them.  In each case I specifically asked about support and parts availability and they unanimously stated the support has been first rate.  (I've had a wonderful experience each time I've talked with FD USA.)

 

Let's talk about the Turbo for a moment and note that I mentioned rate of climb not ceiling.  Let's say that a "friend" wanted to go cross country in comfort and had an unfortunate tendency to carry too much luggage, was a bit heavy and liked having full fuel so "he" is consistently in violation of the arbitrary 1320 pound limitation....  In our "hypothetical" case a turbo helps get a fat bird off the runway. 

 

I should clarify that I haven't bought anything, the wife and I are in Florida and visiting Tecnam's Sebring facility on Friday to look.  My better half has to agree. 

[gbigs]

Good points.  I thought of the possible impact of hard landings on prices.  However, I had the plane carefully inspected and the damage was limited to the legs.  A CT is a surprisingly tough bird.  Before I bought mine I talked with the owners of a CT with firewall damage that was repaired and they had a unrealistic view of their value.  In talking with FD USA, they sell a fair number of legs!  So I suspect it is more common than admitted.

 

Also good advice on Tecnam, I read some of the same comments online as you.  However what I found is that those comments are old and predate Tecnam opening their facility in Florida.  I spoke with three owners all of whom love their planes and rave about them.  In each case I specifically asked about support and parts availability and they unanimously stated the support has been first rate.  (I've had a wonderful experience each time I've talked with FD USA.)

 

Let's talk about the Turbo for a moment and note that I mentioned rate of climb not ceiling.  Let's say that a "friend" wanted to go cross country in comfort and had an unfortunate tendency to carry too much luggage, was a big heavy and liked having full fuel so "he" is consistently in violation of the arbitrary 1320 pound limitation....  In our "hypothetical" case a turbo helps get a fat bird off the runway. 

 

I should clarify that I haven't bought anything, the wife and I are in Florida and visiting Tecnam's Sebring facility on Friday to look.  My better half has to agree. 

Well, you do know the Florida facility is a sales office, not manufacturing.  Why do you need a higher rate of climb than what your CT does?  You won't be flying any faster, so why climb faster?

[Scott Lee]

Two general guidelines on trade-ins...

 

1) They tend to complicate what you're really getting for your old plane. The only way to simplify it is to tell the seller you are a cash buyer, and negotiate the best cash price. Only then bring up the trade. The real amount you're getting for the trade is then apparent.

 

2) Sales tax can come into play. I see IL has a 6.25% rate, possibly higher in some municipalities. If it applies to aircraft, then typically you only pay tax on the difference between the new plane and the trade-in, possibly saving thousands of dollars. That may offset taking a slightly lower trade-in value than you think you could sell the plane for on the open market, not to mention eliminating the hassle factor of selling a used plane yourself.

 

At least two conflicting factors may come into play right now. With new CT's very difficult to get, that should drag up the prices of used ones. Then again, Flight Design's problems may be dragging prices down - uncertainty is never helpful. Even Cecil, one of Flight Design's biggest fanbois, had to admit the real or perceived problems with FD Germany going forward made it harder for him to sell his plane for the price he thought it was worth.

1) Yep.

2) Indeed, sales tax is why I'd look to trade in.  Plus eliminate the need to wait for someone buy my plane.

3) From watching Controller and tradeaplane CT's do sell, in looking at used Tecnams, they also sell, it just takes time.  I personally think Cecil was asking a good price for his CT given the equipment, hours, age of plane.  But it's easy to say when I'm not the one paying $140k.

[FastEddieB]

I personally think Cecil was asking a good price for his CT given the equipment, hours, age of plane.  But it's easy to say when I'm not the one paying $140k.

 

 

Maybe a "good price", but at the "right price" it would have sold.

[FastEddieB]

You won't be flying any faster, so why climb faster?

 

Yeah, rate of climb is just SO overrated!

[Scott Lee]

Yeah, rate of climb is just SO overrated!

 

I flew my CT and stopped in Arizona a year ago.  It was a hot day and the airport elevation was 5,500 feet.  On climb out I couldn't exceed 200 feet per minute.  I had to follow interstate because I couldn't gain enough altitude to get over the mountains.  Sold me on the idea of more power.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I flew my CT and stopped in Arizona a year ago.  It was a hot day and the airport elevation was 5,500 feet.  On climb out I couldn't exceed 200 feet per minute.  I had to follow interstate because I couldn't gain enough altitude to get over the mountains.  Sold me on the idea of more power.

 

Scott, 

 

There is something limiting your performance.  Has your prop pitch been optimized?

[Scott Lee]

Yes there was something limiting my performance and it wasn't the prop - full fuel, two 200 lb guys with luggage and high density altitude.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Yes there was something limiting my performance and it wasn't the prop - full fuel, two 200 lb guys with luggage and high density altitude.

 

Still doesn't add up.  Even if you were 1500lbs you wouldn't be that limited.

 

My home field is 7,128' and surrounding terrain is 13-14+,000' and have had a CT for 10 years.  I have also seen many CTs at the Page fly-ins for instance. The group, some heavy do well at 11,000'.

 

I do fly behind a 914 with adjustable prop at times and the difference is dramatic.  I seldom go above 12,500 in the CT where 16,500 in the Europa is as easy as 10,000' is in the CT so I'm with you on the advantage of the turbo but performance in AZ even when heavy doesn't normally limit a CT to following the interstate.

[gbigs]

Maybe a "good price", but at the "right price" it would have sold.

 

The plane is still for sale and will remain so until sold.  In the meantime we are happy to own and fly it....it's cheap compared to the Cirrus and beyond.  The 'right' price is dependent on buyer and demand and patience.

[gbigs]

I flew my CT and stopped in Arizona a year ago.  It was a hot day and the airport elevation was 5,500 feet.  On climb out I couldn't exceed 200 feet per minute.  I had to follow interstate because I couldn't gain enough altitude to get over the mountains.  Sold me on the idea of more power.

 

This is not normal for the plane.  I live at 6,000, CT lives even higher.  I can still climb at 400fpm @ 62kts on a 9k density altitude day. And that's at MTOW.  My prop is set for cruise.  As others note, you may want to set your prop for climb if that is your preference.

[Scott Lee]

I could provide more detail to win the argument but I was there and you weren't . Besides its off the subject at hand.

 

Hamburger you have dealt with placing your plane for sale through a dealer, so how about sharing that experience and a typical mark up. That would be truly helpful to set a realistic expectation.

[gbigs]

I could provide more detail to win the argument but I was there and you weren't . Besides its off the subject at hand.

 

Hamburger you have dealt with placing your plane for sale through a dealer, so how about sharing that experience and a typical mark up. That would be truly helpful to set a realistic expectation.

 

I had it on controller for the past 10 months.   For the past two weeks it is now in the hands of a broker.  Our price is set on several factors....engine time, zero damage history, upgraded engine to Sport level, always hangared, never ran 100LL (includes Mogas fuel trailer), always professionally maintained by Lone Mountain.  The plane is perfection and low time...someone is getting a good deal.

 

You will face several problems....the biggest is the damage..no matter how well you had it fixed buyers first ask if it's a training plane....You will have a hard time explaining the damage history so you should price accordingly if you want to sell quickly.  After that it's the usual, year made, current log books, hangared or not, who did the maintenance, how fresh the annual, location of the plane and the buyer (they want you to ferry it to them, our broker includes that for free), engine time and squawks they find.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I could provide more detail to win the argument but I was there and you weren't . 

 

You could provide additional info but you cannot correctly conclude that a CT, even well over gross lacks the performance to climb over any AZ mountains.

 

We've seen it done well over gross, we've seen it done with props so coarse that a lot of power could not be accessed and we've done it every month of the year.

 

I flew over 3 hours last week and was never lower than 7,000'

 

You have concluded that a turbo / more power is the way to go and I concur but the CT fleet is actually pretty mountain capable.

[Scott Lee]

You could provide additional info but you cannot correctly conclude that a CT, even well over gross lacks the performance to climb over any AZ mountains.

 

We've seen it done well over gross, we've seen it done with props so coarse that a lot of power could not be accessed and we've done it every month of the year.

 

I flew over 3 hours last week and was never lower than 7,000'

 

You have concluded that a turbo / more power is the way to go and I concur but the CT fleet is actually pretty mountain capable.

 

Look, it was in mid-afternoon on a hot day with high density altitude.  I've climbed out at 900-1000 fpm at my home airport in the mid-west.  I listed a bunch of considerations beyond climb performance in considering a change.  I started from Palm Springs CA in the early morning and had no problem climbing to 13,500 to get over the mountains.  So I know the CT can climb and fly over mountains.

[FastEddieB]

deleted

[Ed Cesnalis]

That's quite a loss of performance, easily able to climb to 13,500 in the morning and in the afternoon restricted to following interstates because you can't cross AZ mountains.  

 

Your desire for more power makes sense, your loss of performance sounds exaggerated. 

[Scott Lee]

That's quite a loss of performance, easily able to climb to 13,500 in the morning and in the afternoon restricted to following interstates because you can't cross AZ mountains.  

 

Your desire for more power makes sense, your loss of performance sounds exaggerated. 

I'm sure you are probably right. I'm relying on memory from a year ago so I can't give exact numbers.  I recall taking off and as I climbed I kept having to push the nose down because I was getting a stall warning.  As I recall I leveled the plane, engaged the autopilot and set the rate of climb to 500, then 400, then 300, then 200 before the stall warning stopped complaining.  So what altitude was I at?  I don't know for sure.

[FlyingMonkey]

Getting back to the topic,  has anyone sold a plane with damage history?  What was the impact on the price of the plane?  Plus how much does a CT depreciate a year?  Cars are easy to value, the data set is enormous.

 

I think you are getting into a highly variable discussion.  Some buyers will not even consider an airplane with damage history, some won't care as long as the repairs are "good as new".  Others still will see the damage history as an opportunity to get a bargain price on an otherwise great airplane.  

 

If I were selling a CT with DH, I'd start by pricing it similarly to asking prices for others of the same year, then slowly adjusting the price downward over time if it didn't sell.