Flying with a pulse - oximeter

[FlyingMonkey]

At real world altitudes I would maintain my advantage over you.  Imagine an Everest trip.  At every part of the trip I would have advantage because I am equipped to carry more O2 to my cells.

 

You said as altitude increases that acclimated people fall of FASTER,  what are you talking about there?

 

There is a certain point where the curve drops more quickly than for low altitude folks as a percentage of carrying capacity, due to the simple biological incapacity of the cells to take up the O2 at low enough partial pressures.  It doesn't mean you are *worse* off than those folks, just that your rate of change is faster.

 

We're all fighting he same biology, there are no supermen.  The FAA doesn't have different standards for folks living at higher altitudes.  I naturally have a very high hematocrit myself, just shy of clinical polycythemia, but it doesn't make me want to push altitude limits like Burgers does.

[FlyingMonkey]

At real world altitudes I would maintain my advantage over you.  Imagine an Everest trip.  At every part of the trip I would have advantage because I am equipped to carry more O2 to my cells.

 

 

Maybe, maybe not...I have been a runner for years, and my natural hematocrit is pushing the lower bounds of polycythemia, I give blood every eight weeks because of it.  

[FlyingMonkey]

My only real point is that relying on altitude acclimation to keep you safe is a shaky strategy, IMO.

[FastEddieB]

So, you think if the FAA requires O2 after thirty minutes at 12,501ft, you can safely fly ONE foot below that for nine hours? That's the definition of "good information"?

Or that "And you won't see that unless you get a LOT higher, say around 14k and above which of course is not possible in the CT or any other SLSA."

 

Just curious - has anyone had their CT above 14,000'? I know my Sky Arrow is capable of it.

[FlyingMonkey]

Or that "And you won't see that unless you get a LOT higher, say around 14k and above which of course is not possible in the CT or any other SLSA."

 

Just curious - has anyone had their CT above 14,000'? I know my Sky Arrow is capable of it.

 

IIRC I heard of people above 14k in a CT, maybe even above 16k.

[Ed Cesnalis]

There is a certain point where the curve drops more quickly than for low altitude folks as a percentage of carrying capacity, due to the simple biological incapacity of the cells to take up the O2 at low enough partial pressures.  It doesn't mean you are *worse* off than those folks, just that your rate of change is faster.

 

We're all fighting he same biology, there are no supermen.  The FAA doesn't have different standards for folks living at higher altitudes.  I naturally have a very high hematocrit myself, just shy of clinical polycythemia, but it doesn't make me want to push altitude limits like Burgers does.

 

Living at altitude does provide a meaningful advantage.  I have climbed 14,000' peaks when living at the beach and then later when living at altitude. The advantage of living at altitude is meaningful. Marathon and other distance runners move to Mammoth and live and train here to keep that advantage built in.

 

Don't see it as I would do better than you, see it as I would do better than myself if I still lived at the beach.

[FlyingMonkey]

Living at altitude does provide a meaningful advantage.  I have climbed 14,000' peaks when living at the beach and then later when living at altitude. The advantage of living at altitude is meaningful. Marathon and other distance runners move to Mammoth and live and train here to keep that advantage built in.

 

Don't see it as I would do better than you, see it as I would do better than myself if I still lived at the beach.

 

I'm not denying the advantages, I was just pointing out to Burgers you can't trust that to save you from hypoxia when flying.  You are clearly not relying on it because you monitor your pulse ox.

[gbigs]

So, you think if the FAA requires O2 after thirty minutes at 12,501ft, you can safely fly ONE foot below that for nine hours?  That's the definition of "good information"?

 

I do it routinely.  I fly at 12,500 between Las Vegas and Reno biweekly.     My Cirrus supplied pulse oximeter is in the center console but I don't put it on unless I also have the cannula ready to fly above 13k. 

 

None of you will fly at 12,500 in your CTs unless for some odd reason you want to push up to the ceiling and take oxygen with you.  Did you know when you fly commercial pressurization is set for 8k feet for the entire flight above 8k feet?

[FastEddieB]

 

None of you will fly at 12,500 in your CTs unless for some odd reason you want to push to the ceiling the plane and take oxygen with you.

What ceiling are you referring to? There are at least two different ones for any given plane.

[Ed Cesnalis]

On Saturday my cruising altitude was 12,500.

 

[gbigs]

What ceiling are you referring to? There are at least two different ones for any given plane.

 

From CT POH:

[gbigs]

On Saturday my cruising altitude was 12,500.

 

 

You don't count CT; you're a master of your aircraft and a sturdy mountain man, sorta like Jeremiah Johnson.

[FastEddieB]

From CT POH:

Thanks!

 

Remember these normally assume...

 

1) Maximum Gross Weight

 

2) Most Forward CG, and,

 

3) Standard Day Conditions.

 

Since one will always be below Maximum Gross Weight on reaching altitude, and rarely right at the Most Forward CG, given standard conditions one can expect to exceed those numbers.

 

Still, they do seem low to me, so I learned something.

[CT4ME]

'Flew at 11.5 or 12.5 almost the entire way to/from Seattle from Phoenix.  Went to 13.5 for a while over SLC.  No O2, but I'll be checking with pulse OX if there is a next time.

 

Understanding safety is foremost, I can't help but think the FAA has done a BUNCH$$$ of research on the topic and have come up with some appropriately conservative numbers.  If their numbers aren't safe, there are a bunch of organizations, gov't, edu, and private, that would make a lot of noise

[Ed Cesnalis]

Some days I need a lot more altitude to cross the Sierra because of shear.  12,500' seems to be highest cruise altitude where you still have decent speed and it isn't too tedious to climb there. 

 

You can go much higher by getting in the wave.  If you ride the wave up it can be impossible to stop at 18,000' and ATC has an unobstructed view up there.

[Doug G.]

I thought I was the only Garmin Pilot user around here. I love it.

Count me in too, but then I also wear a Garmin watch. (I got a lot of grief the last time I mentioned that.).

[gbigs]

'Flew at 11.5 or 12.5 almost the entire way to/from Seattle from Phoenix.  Went to 13.5 for a while over SLC.  No O2, but I'll be checking with pulse OX if there is a next time.

 

Understanding safety is foremost, I can't help but think the FAA has done a BUNCH$$$ of research on the topic and have come up with some appropriately conservative numbers.  If their numbers aren't safe, there are a bunch of organizations, gov't, edu, and private, that would make a lot of noise

 

I got over SLC at 12,500 on the trip back from Diluth.  The top of the Bravo is 12,000 and as we flew over they just asked us if we were gonna fly between the Restricted areas using V200/V32 off the SLC VOR.

[Doug G.]

Age, fitness and conditioning to altitude are a part of the equation. I flew at 8500 ft. for an hour and a half but was wiped out the next day. Perhaps coincidence, or maybe because my field is 902 ft. MSL. I also cannot claim to be particularly athletic which doesn't help.

[FastEddieB]

Age, fitness and conditioning to altitude are a part of the equation. I flew at 8500 ft. for an hour and a half but was wiped out the next day. Perhaps coincidence, or maybe because my field is 902 ft. MSL. I also cannot claim to be particularly athletic which doesn't help.

That's about where I'm at. I can fly at 8,000' or so for multiple legs in a day if necessary, but I know my performance begins to degrade towards the end. And I can also feel "wiped out" the following day.

 

I currently live at about 2,000', but spent most of my adult life living at about sea level.

[GravityKnight]

 

 

And you won't see that unless you get a LOT higher, say around 14k and above which of course is not possible in the CT or any other SLSA.

 

LOL... whatever you say. Not possible at all 

 

And don't confuse being able to, and doing it and it being a good idea without o2 the same thing...

 

 

 

 

 

Just curious - has anyone had their CT above 14,000'? I know my Sky Arrow is capable of it. 

I know a *guy* who took a CTSW to above 16k.... not at gross, but not real light either.

 

Same guy who several CTLS's and for what it's worth non of them would break about 14ish

 

 

I saw about 16k or so on the rans stock iirc with the manual leaner, had more in it but climb was getting pretty slow. With the zipper it would blow through 18k. Oxygen was onboard and it was a quick test.. and of course was stopped sub 18k

[Roger Lee]

A CT will clear 18k with no problem and it will fly up there with a door open. I know this for a fact. The engine is rated for at least 16k. Set the prop right and it will go higher. Trikes and Ultralights have records up around 30K - 31K.

I'm sure other LSA can make it too.

 

Think outside your daily box.

[gbigs]

A CT will clear 18k with no problem and it will fly up there with a door open. I know this for a fact. The engine is rated for at least 16k. Set the prop right and it will go higher. Trikes and Ultralights have records up around 30K - 31K.

I'm sure other LSA can make it too.

 

Think outside your daily box.

 

The CT altitude limits are based on density altitude and weight.  Gliders can get very high also riding thermals and waves, so the engine doesn't matter if you are riding one of those.  If you get above 14k and are not trained to use and have a solid setup for oxygen you will die.  The Cirrus has layers of safety built-in around the oxygen system because high altitude flying will kill you if you don't know what you are doing and are not able to get back down quickly if you run into trouble and/or do not detect there is a problem before it's too late.

[FastEddieB]

Quite different from your assertion that no LSA can reach 14,000', which is still false.

 

Changing the subject as you are now is called "moving the goalposts" and is pretty blatantly obvious.

[gbigs]

Quite different from your assertion that no LSA can reach 14,000', which is still false.

 

Changing the subject as you are now is called "moving the goalposts" and is pretty blatantly obvious.

 

I never said the plane won't get to 14,000...I said no one would want to or need to be flying at that altitude in the plane.  That altitude exceeds the POH and a violation of Sport Pilot rules.  Do you break the rules in your plane? 

 

When reading the thread objectively and not looking for ways to attack someone (as happens on the COPA site routinely) the thread has established that flying the CT at it's rated maximum of 12,300 feet density at MTOM can be done without an oximeter and without oxygen safely for most.  The exceptions being sea level guys that have known lung issues like smoking, COPD or age problems.

[Ed Cesnalis]

The exception for 2,500' AGL in the light sport rule is ambiguous or at  least it is generally interpreted to mean more than: 'when above 10,000' then restricted to 2,500' AGL'.  Pilots reason they need the altitude to approach and descend as well and think they are using the exception to remain legal.

 

I say a fair interpretation would be more restrictive.  

 

You can legally fly light sport in CA at 12,500 the question is how big of an area is that true for?