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Hot or Not?


FlyingMonkey

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In this thread Andy said he was seeing 240 last year on climbs en route to Osh.  Now this year he reports its even worse.

 

I reported hitting 250 on a 10,000' climb out of a California desert.

 

When you consider the different climb profiles, and different temps 5 degress hotter for me is less than I would expect.

 

I say other CTs are the same as mine and Andy's is an example.

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Just remember the variables that are under your immediate control to help temps. When I'm headed out and need to climb after takeoff I just don't head for the heavens. I usually only climb about 250-300  per minute. If I have lots of time I use -6 and if I want a little better climb or I'm heavy I stay in zero.  I'm never in a hurry to get there. Most want to climb fast and I have never seen a reason to do it that way unless there is an obstacle in the way. Some pilots do things unconsciously and don't know they are adding to a problem or can help it by changing their habits.

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I can't agree that beginning your initial climb from take off is in any way a bad or negative habit.  When I depart a big city and have no landing options plus mountain right in front of me the only safe thing to do is to climb and depart the congested area.

 

I do use reflex flaps and minimize my climb rates but these techniques do nothing to help cooling.  The only thing that helps is to climb quickly to cooler temps.

 

If take off then loitering were my option I would choose a larger oil cooler.

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Just remember the variables that are under your immediate control to help temps. When I'm headed out and need to climb after takeoff I just don't head for the heavens. I usually only climb about 250-300  per minute. If I have lots of time I use -6 and if I want a little better climb or I'm heavy I stay in zero.  I'm never in a hurry to get there. Most want to climb fast and I have never seen a reason to do it that way unless there is an obstacle in the way. Some pilots do things unconsciously and don't know they are adding to a problem or can help it by changing their habits.

 

The FAA recommends that you climb at best rate immediately after take off to get to a safe altitude in case you have an engine failure. Once at a safe altitude you can transition to a cruise climb. Just a month ago I had an examiner ask a student about this on a checkride. 

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The FAA recommends that you climb at best rate immediately after take off to get to a safe altitude in case you have an engine failure. Once at a safe altitude you can transition to a cruise climb. Just a month ago I had an examiner ask a student about this on a checkride. 

 

I agree with Roger.  Especially in a plane with a parachute....there is no reason to climb steeply if you are not being paid to get somewhere.  A 2 to 300fpm climb is about right in the CT.  One difference between what Roger sees and what I see is the -6 flap setting feels like an easier climb for the plane and is central to cruise IMHO.  Also, there is no reason to climb WOT unless clearing an obstacle.

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Slower climbs mean you spend more time at altitudes with opposing traffic direction when climbing through them.

 

Slower climbs mean you have less altitude available in the event of an engine failure.

 

There are reasons to climb faster, and I had two different instructors tell me to always climb at WOT.  But obviously it's a choice and opinions differ.

 

As an aside, I would not make flight decisions based on having a parachute. 

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I agree with Roger.  Especially in a plane with a parachute....there is no reason to climb steeply if you are not being paid to get somewhere.  A 2 to 300fpm climb is about right in the CT.  One difference between what Roger sees and what I see is the -6 flap setting feels like an easier climb for the plane and is central to cruise IMHO.  Also, there is no reason to climb WOT unless clearing an obstacle.

 

You see the thing is, as an instructor I have to teach my students what the FAA wants them to know, not the way you and Roger think it should be done.

My suggestion for climb is immediately after take off while still in the traffic pattern. Once out of that pattern a shallow climb is fine if terrain allows.

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Slower climbs mean you spend more time at altitudes with opposing traffic direction when climbing through them.

 

Slower climbs mean you have less altitude available in the event of an engine failure.

 

There are reasons to climb faster, and I had two different instructors tell me to always climb at WOT.  But obviously it's a choice and opinions differ.

 

As an aside, I would not make flight decisions based on having a parachute. 

 

How much altitude is 'less' altitude?  The only altitude that matters in the CT is the min height to pull the chute which sadly the POH does not provide IMHO.  But given the Cirrus numbers I am guessing around 200 feet agl should be sufficient in the CT given it's weight.

 

WOT climb is fine and what most deem appropriate, but there is nothing wrong with a slower climb at less than full throttle.  Not all planes get hot like the CT either.

 

Having a parachute makes the aircraft unique in regard to safety and does change the dynamics of how to fly, what to do in an engine out or mid air emergency, and whether to fly higher to achieve a longer glide distance as planes without a parachute must consider.

 

This is a good thread because we are all trying to solve the special problem the CT has in regard to temperature management.

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How much altitude is 'less' altitude?  The only altitude that matters in the CT is the min height to pull the chute which sadly the POH does not provide IMHO.  But given the Cirrus numbers I am guessing around 200 feet agl should be sufficient in the CT given it's weight.

 

WOT climb is fine and what most deem appropriate, but there is nothing wrong with a slower climb at less than full throttle.  Not all planes get hot like the CT either.

 

Having a parachute makes the aircraft unique in regard to safety and does change the dynamics of how to fly, what to do in an engine out or mid air emergency, and whether to fly higher to achieve a longer glide distance as planes without a parachute must consider.

 

This is a good thread because we are all trying to solve the special problem the CT has in regard to temperature management.

 

The parachute is not your only option.  What if another 500 feet makes a glider landing to a nearby field possible?  Do you not even attempt it, just pop the chute?

 

There is nothing wrong with climbing at less that WOT.  What you said is there is no reason to climb at WOT...I gave you two quick reasons.

 

As for heat, I think my CTSW does a bit better when I limit taxi time and climb WOT for the cooler air, and try to get there before the temps get up too high.  Once the engine gets really heat soaked (~240°F), it's harder to manage temps and cools down much slower.  Once leveled at high altitude with cooler air the temps come down nicely.

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As an aside, on many "legacy" aircraft, the mixture is automatically enrichened at full throttle to help avoid detonation.

 

In those planes, pulling the throttle back "just a little" in the climb can have unintended, and possibly dangerous, consequences.

 

Don't think it applies to the BING's in the same way, but still good to file away if you ever fly a Continental or Lycoming carbureted aircraft.

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As an aside, on many "legacy" aircraft, the mixture is automatically enrichened at full throttle to help avoid detonation.

 

In those planes, pulling the throttle back "just a little" in the climb can have unintended, and possibly dangerous, consequences.

 

Don't think it applies to the BING's in the same way, but still good to file away if you ever fly a Continental or Lycoming carbureted aircraft.

 

It does apply to Rotax (Bing and FI) in the same way.

 

What these 2 systems have in common is a mentality that anytime that the throttle is wide open or close to it full rich is selected for you.  And in both systems anytime you retard the throttle, say to 5,200RPM then the system auto-leans for you.

 

Does either the carb or injected system have a fine line where those unintended, and possibly dangerous, consequences occur?  Probably not but the extra safety margin provided by the full rich default is abandoned when climbing at less than WOT.

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The parachute is not your only option.  What if another 500 feet makes a glider landing to a nearby field possible?  Do you not even attempt it, just pop the chute?

 

There is nothing wrong with climbing at less that WOT.  What you said is there is no reason to climb at WOT...I gave you two quick reasons.

 

As for heat, I think my CTSW does a bit better when I limit taxi time and climb WOT for the cooler air, and try to get there before the temps get up too high.  Once the engine gets really heat soaked (~240°F), it's harder to manage temps and cools down much slower.  Once leveled at high altitude with cooler air the temps come down nicely.

 

All aviation sites have threads and ridicule over the parachute in a plane.  Cirrus who originated the GA chute takes it very seriously and provides the training on how and when to use the chute for all new owners (and has a full motion simulator just for chute training).  Cirrus also requires recurrency training on the chute as well.    

 

It's akin to seat belts in cars and the dangers of smoking...at first there is hue and cry and now no one questions the use of seat belts or the dangers of cigarettes.  Right now we are in the age of 'well since I don't have a parachute then I don't need a parachute'  but that will change as it becomes more and more apparent that the chute is the FIRST goto option when you are above min altitude in most emergency scenarios.

 

Altitude is a friend, but less critical in a plane with a parachute.  In a plane without one getting higher faster is part of surviving.  In a plane with a parachute that need disappears.

 

Roger's slow climb is a great way to reduce stress on the engine and keep temperatures down in the summer.  And it's conveniently an available option for CT owners given they do have the chute and are not flying for pay (IFR flying, or in a hustle to get somewhere).

 

Mountain flying presents a bigger challenge but there is still nothing wrong with circling slowly to gain altitude before crossing them.   Night flying requires circuling after takeoff when mountains are nearby.

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All aviation sites have threads and ridicule over the parachute in a plane.  Cirrus who originated the GA chute takes it very seriously and provides the training on how and when to use the chute for all new owners (and has a full motion simulator just for chute training).  Cirrus also requires recurrency training on the chute as well.    

 

 

 

BRS introduced the chute 16 years prior to it being installed in a Cirrus.

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I'm not talking about the pattern climb out. I climb at 15 flaps and 60 knots straight out until I reach a safe altitude to make adjustments to flaps and throttle. This always allows me enough altitude to do a 180 degree turn in case changing something causes a problem, it gives me amble chute altitude and I'm already setup in landing configuration if things go south until I make my changes. Once out of the pattern, in -6 and on course I climb in -6 at 250-300 until I reach my cruise altitude which for me is fairly low compared to some.

 

My instructor cared more that I knew my specific plane and operating parameters over some of the FAA ideas. He did require I have a good reason. Since individual planes have different quirks at times I would prefer the pilot fly those parameters and only use some of the FAA parameters as a guide. FAA sometimes works better as guidelines and not hard rules.

 

I read Eddie's post on full throttle.

 

The Bing is in fact setup to be rich at WOT to help stay out of detonation problems. Reduced power leans out. Midrange runs hottest. There have been people seize their 912. I've seen several cases and as usual when bad things happen to the 912 they were all caused by the operator or mechanic.

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Not sure about that analogy. What is magical about WOT? The engine does not bog down as it would in a vehicle. To climb at 5000 rpm is worse for the Rotax than WOT.

When I am taking off I always use WOT, but if I am changing altitude, I seldom do. I still keep it at 5000.

I don't try to keep my vehicles at red line either.

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All aviation sites have threads and ridicule over the parachute in a plane.  Cirrus who originated the GA chute takes it very seriously and provides the training on how and when to use the chute for all new owners (and has a full motion simulator just for chute training).  Cirrus also requires recurrency training on the chute as well.    

 

It's akin to seat belts in cars and the dangers of smoking...at first there is hue and cry and now no one questions the use of seat belts or the dangers of cigarettes.  Right now we are in the age of 'well since I don't have a parachute then I don't need a parachute'  but that will change as it becomes more and more apparent that the chute is the FIRST goto option when you are above min altitude in most emergency scenarios.

 

 

Nobody here is questioning the value of the parachute, most of the pilots here fly an airplane equipped with one.  But making your aeronautical decisions based on having one is like deciding to drive in a more reckless manner because you have airbags.  Where does it end?  "I can fly through this icing, I have a parachute!"..."Those convective cells aren't so bad, I have a parachute!"..."Night flying over the mountains, no problem...I have a parachute!"

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... What is magical about WOT? ...

 

  1.  WOT uses the main jet to determine mixture so you are full rich and protected from detonation.
  2. Above 7,500' where available power is reduce below 75% WOT ensures all available power is being utilized. 

Note: power settings below 75% are used in piston airplanes for economy purposes but for me in a CT they are not generally useful.

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At WOT the in take off climb the engine is under stress and bogged down. That is why you only see around 5000 in that climb scenario. Because of the stress and internal heat the Bing carbs are running full rich to protect the engine. As you either shallow your climb or transition into cruise the engine load decreases and it works under less stress.

 

 

5000 rpm in level cruise is far easier (unloaded depending on prop pitch) on the engine than 5000 WOT in a takeoff climb.

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That part is false.

 

Since Eddie has not owned or flown a Cirrus in several years and has never owned a Flight Design Ct his knowledge of current factory operations and information on both products is low or non-existent.  Eddie is not alone, half the COPA members are also former owners and bully new owners with old and out of date information.

 

I on the other hand am the proud owner of a 2016 Cirrus SR22T and received the factory training this year.  What I say about the Cirrus and the Flight Design are accurate and from current experience.

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Nobody here is questioning the value of the parachute, most of the pilots here fly an airplane equipped with one.  But making your aeronautical decisions based on having one is like deciding to drive in a more reckless manner because you have airbags.  Where does it end?  "I can fly through this icing, I have a parachute!"..."Those convective cells aren't so bad, I have a parachute!"..."Night flying over the mountains, no problem...I have a parachute!"

 

As I noted, FD provides the BRS chute but does not provide information in the POH or in any kind of factory training on how, why and when to use the device.  But Cirrus by contrast does provide comprehensive training on the BRS chute.  FD owners are on their own in 'guessing' regarding the chute. 

 

From the Cirrus training you learn the chute is not an afterthought or a backup device....it is a PRIMARY emergency use technology when the engine fails day or night, and under more rare circumstances like flying over water and mid-air collisions (and about a dozen other scenarios).   The Cirrus pre-takeoff briefing includes setting the altitude bug to the min agl for chute deployment....and briefing out loud before rolling to pull the chute once that height is achieved in case of trouble.  Once the min agl is reached pilots are to call out "CAPS Available" in order to remind everyone, esp the pilot, that the chute is ready for use.  And when trouble happens at higher altitudes emergency procedures include troubleshooting if there is time and attempting to correct the problems, but NEVER descend below the min agl before pulling the chute.  There is a max descent speed that must not be exceeded before pulling the chute (sadly we don't know what that is for the FD).

 

 It was found by Cirrus that those few crashes where the chute would have saved the occupants but was not deployed was due to pilots not pulling - Cirrus calls that failure the 'primacy effect" because the aviation world still does not understand how the chute is to be used.  So I am trying to impress upon you (and others flying a CT) that the presence of the chute makes flying the CT different from planes not equipped with the chute....it is not just an accidental and secondary piece of equipment.  It's too bad you can't take BRS training Cirrus provides it would greatly benefit you since you do have that chute sitting behind you.

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