Avoid nosing over - here's the drill

[Roger Lee]

Hi Eddie,

 

 

A CT lands nothing like a Skyarrow  and a comparison wouldn't be equal.

Even the person in that plane is jacking the stick with the porposing. Those types of things make people bounce or balloon. That landing in your video would have caused a tail strike in a CT and the only way to get the nose that high off the runway is to land with excessive power or yank the stick back at the last moment. 

If your nose is too high, off the ground and you're too slow without any more rudder authority you leave yourself to get slapped by wind drop or a erratic side wind. Under normal landings then no problem.

 

You'll never get a CT to keep the nose off the ground like that after the mains touch and it's especially true if you and ED land at full stall. The CT design makes it that way unless the pilot decides to give it a lot of throttle and pull the nose back up which kind of defeats the purpose of a  land short keep the nose off the scenario because then you have to have speed again.

 

Different planes do land differently with their pitch. Absolutely many land the same and from the GA world they like the term flare. Flare in a CT and several other LSA and light aircraft gets you in trouble where roundout to the runway keeps you from dropping and or striking your tail. Some planes land more nose high and carry more energy than others. It isn't a one size fits all. 

 

The only thing that's important here is that each pilot knows the difference, knows more than one way to land (and all full stall landings isn't it), practices those different type landings and knows when to use them.

 

Like a good CFI and DAR knows and has told me more than once it's more importatnt to know your individual plane and its specific characteristics than try to fly a plane the way it may be written in a general information book.

[ralarcon]

It will land flat IF you let it. A little excess speed and a less aggressive flare with, lets say, 30 degree flaps will likely find you a couple of feet above the runway in a flat attitude. Even then, with experience, you can anticipate the "drop" and rapidly apply aft stick to touch down nose up.

 

To avoid this, get slowed to the proper speed on final then flare more aggressively to arrive at the touchdown in a nose high attitude. This takes a little more experience with the aircraft and maybe a little power to correct mistakes.

 

Your guy may be the best in the world. I don't know him. But, experience as a flight instructor has taught me that being a "jet pilot" tells me nothing except to keep my guard up. No offense meant.

I'm never 100% happy with any landing I do, some are better, some are worse, I keep practicing. I know for sure Chuck is a much better pilot than I am.

I just keep trying and practicing. However, been able to land in a 23 knot crosswind without harming anyone (had a passenger, did not scare her), or bending anything, so I'm not clueless, but certainly far from being perfect or have the best technique , by any stretch.

 

Cheers

[ralarcon]

Hi Eddie,

 

 

A CT lands nothing like a Skyarrow  and a comparison wouldn't be equal.

Even the person in that plane is jacking the stick with the porposing. Those types of things make people bounce or balloon. That landing in your video would have caused a tail strike in a CT and the only way to get the nose that high off the runway is to land with excessive power or yank the stick back at the last moment. 

If your nose is too high, off the ground and you're too slow without any more rudder authority you leave yourself to get slapped by wind drop or a erratic side wind. Under normal landings then no problem.

 

You'll never get a CT to keep the nose off the ground like that after the mains touch and it's especially true if you and ED land at full stall. The CT design makes it that way unless the pilot decides to give it a lot of throttle and pull the nose back up which kind of defeats the purpose of a  land short keep the nose off the scenario because then you have to have speed again.

 

Different planes do land differently with their pitch. Absolutely many land the same and from the GA world they like the term flare. Flare in a CT and several other LSA and light aircraft gets you in trouble where roundout to the runway keeps you from dropping and or striking your tail. Some planes land more nose high and carry more energy than others. It isn't a one size fits all. 

 

The only thing that's important here is that each pilot knows the difference, knows more than one way to land (and all full stall landings isn't it), practices those different type landings and knows when to use them.

 

Like a good CFI and DAR knows and has told me more than once it's more importatnt to know your individual plane and its specific characteristics than try to fly a plane the way it may be written in a general information book.

I tend to agree with this. All of the CT instructors I have met agree, that you fly the CT to the runway and never stop flying until you touch down. This ,in my opinion, happens to coincide with what Roger is saying.

 

Cheers

[Ed Cesnalis]

I wasn't "blaming" anything, I was giving my experiences with the airplane, and noting the best landings are done with full aft stick.  

 

I'm talking about a half-inch of remaining stick here, not much at all.  I'm not making excuses for my landings, I'm very happy with them.  With a short final speed at 30° flaps of 48kt, I'm pretty sure I'm not leaving a lot of excess energy on the table, but I'm sure you could do it better.

 

 

I wasn't saying that you do bad landings I was saying that there is no aerodynamic reason provided here why we should not land in a typical nose high attitude.  

 

I used the word blaming not in that you were defending your landings but that you were defending a position (that CTs land flat).  I was just point out that in a CT if you are not at that aft stop early you are landing flat.

 

The typical landing attitude, using typical flaps resulting in the minimum landing speed is more difficult to do in a CT and it does require a more dramatic flare and it isn't favored by most CT pilots.  Boeing when training the flat tricycle landing provides a logical aerodynamic explanation that doesn't apply to the CT to the extent where you cannot routinely do conventional landings.

 

We could all just go with the majority CT landings, blame the design and continue to see a high number of roll overs.  Nose-wheels can sometimes avoid holes but first you have to have the ability to hold the wheel off.  Roger says it can't be done and you are arguing in that camp even without having tried.

 

Curious logic Roger uses, he admits that CTs can taxi with their nose wheel elevated yet claims they can't land and roll out with them elevated?  I think its because the average CT pilot lets the plane land itself and doesn't want to mess that up with landing it in a slower safer manner.

 

I fully expect to land my CT in the sage some day, just like I have landed other tricycled gear planes on un-prepared surfaces.  What makes the CT different is the nose wheel will settle in a fraction of a second if you don't hold it off.  Even if you hold it off you have limited pretty limited time without some power.  When it happens my chances of not flipping are going to be better than yours.

[ralarcon]

I wasn't saying that you do bad landings I was saying that there is no aerodynamic reason provided here why we should not land in a typical nose high attitude.  

 

I used the word blaming not in that you were defending your landings but that you were defending a position (that CTs land flat).  I was just point out that in a CT if you are not at that aft stop early you are landing flat.

 

The typical landing attitude, using typical flaps resulting in the minimum landing speed is more difficult to do in a CT and it does require a more dramatic flare and it isn't favored by most CT pilots.  Boeing when training the flat tricycle landing provides a logical aerodynamic explanation that doesn't apply to the CT to the extent where you cannot routinely do conventional landings.

 

We could all just go with the majority CT landings, blame the design and continue to see a high number of roll overs.  Nose-wheels can sometimes avoid holes but first you have to have the ability to hold the wheel off.  Roger says it can't be done and you are arguing in that camp even without having tried.

 

Curious logic Roger uses, he admits that CTs can taxi with their nose wheel elevated yet claims they can't land and roll out with them elevated?  I think its because the average CT pilot lets the plane land itself and doesn't want to mess that up with landing it in a slower safer manner.

 

I fully expect to land my CT in the sage some day, just like I have landed other tricycled gear planes on un-prepared surfaces.  What makes the CT different is the nose wheel will settle in a fraction of a second if you don't hold it off.  Even if you hold it off you have limited pretty limited time without some power.  When it happens my chances of not flipping are going to be better than yours.

If properly trained, I think we all do different types of landings with different types of runway surfaces. For grass and poorly surfaced runways , I try to keep pressure off of the nose wheel, (keep the nose wheel up), as long as I can . However at KLAL with 8500' of smooth pavement not so much.

 

Cheers

[gbigs]

This subject always goes round and round....don't know why...the landings are all essentially done the same way and as long as you get down without damage not sure how much difference it makes how long the nose wheel stays in the air.  I like to get the mains on then let the nosewheel get on the pavement so I can steer effectively.  

 

The Cirrus has a castering nosewheel so putting it down quickly without keeping the stick back will cause it to shutter...the Cirrus really doesn't 'flare' but to land properly you still must touch the mains first and the keep the stick back even as the nosewheel comes down until taxi roll is reached.     I do NOT land with the stall horn on...didn't do it in the CT and don't do it in the CIrrus...but that will raise an argument with some also.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

 

This isn't what I said. 

 

"Curious logic Roger uses, he admits that CTs can taxi with their nose wheel elevated yet claims they can't land and roll out with them elevated?"

 

Re-read my post and at least quote me.

 

It can be done if you abandon a normal landing and it can't be done if you really do a full stall landing.

 

This is your quote,

 

"What makes the CT different is the nose wheel will settle in a fraction of a second if you don't hold it off.  Even if you hold it off you have limited pretty limited time without some power. "

 

Just like I said. Not much holding off in a fraction of a second.

You can't land the CT like you always tell me at full flaps, full stall, no power and keep the nose off and roll out. This is how you have always described your landings. Plus if you are going to land in the bushes your aren't going to do that with power or you would have flown somewhere else. You land in the bushes because you have nothing left. So a keep the nose off the ground won't happen and that's the perfect time for your full stall short roll landing.

 

"If properly trained, I think we all do different types of landings with different types of runway surfaces. For grass and poorly surfaced runways , I try to keep pressure off of the nose wheel,"

 

Bingo. 

 

"(keep the nose wheel up), as long as I can ."

 

And in a CT that is very short. When those mains touch that front is coming down.

[sandpiper]

I'm never 100% happy with any landing I do, some are better, some are worse, I keep practicing. I know for sure Chuck is a much better pilot than I am.

I just keep trying and practicing. However, been able to land in a 23 knot crosswind without harming anyone (had a passenger, did not scare her), or bending anything, so I'm not clueless, but certainly far from being perfect or have the best technique , by any stretch.

 

Cheers

 

I am never completely happy with my landings either. Some are better than others. If a pilot can't finds things about his/her piloting that could be improved, maybe it's time to hang it up.

[sandpiper]

I tend to agree with this. All of the CT instructors I have met agree, that you fly the CT to the runway and never stop flying until you touch down. This ,in my opinion, happens to coincide with what Roger is saying.

 

Cheers

Don't stop at touch down either. In fact, don't stop being a pilot until it's tied down.

[sandpiper]

I find it difficult to keep the nose wheel off the surface once the mains have touched. Sometimes it comes down quicker than others. But, even with my ideal power off touchdown with flaps 30, it comes down quickly. Not like our local RV pilots who seem to be able to keep the nose wheel off for a significant distance.

 

However, if I do a power on touch down (soft field) and keep the power on, I can keep the nose wheel off until I go to 2000 rpm. Then it comes down.

[FlyingMonkey]

I wasn't saying that you do bad landings I was saying that there is no aerodynamic reason provided here why we should not land in a typical nose high attitude.  

 

I used the word blaming not in that you were defending your landings but that you were defending a position (that CTs land flat).  I was just point out that in a CT if you are not at that aft stop early you are landing flat.

 

The typical landing attitude, using typical flaps resulting in the minimum landing speed is more difficult to do in a CT and it does require a more dramatic flare and it isn't favored by most CT pilots.  Boeing when training the flat tricycle landing provides a logical aerodynamic explanation that doesn't apply to the CT to the extent where you cannot routinely do conventional landings.

 

We could all just go with the majority CT landings, blame the design and continue to see a high number of roll overs.  Nose-wheels can sometimes avoid holes but first you have to have the ability to hold the wheel off.  Roger says it can't be done and you are arguing in that camp even without having tried.

 

Curious logic Roger uses, he admits that CTs can taxi with their nose wheel elevated yet claims they can't land and roll out with them elevated?  I think its because the average CT pilot lets the plane land itself and doesn't want to mess that up with landing it in a slower safer manner.

 

I fully expect to land my CT in the sage some day, just like I have landed other tricycled gear planes on un-prepared surfaces.  What makes the CT different is the nose wheel will settle in a fraction of a second if you don't hold it off.  Even if you hold it off you have limited pretty limited time without some power.  When it happens my chances of not flipping are going to be better than yours.

 

I was not saying CTs land flat, you read that into my response.  In fact, I find just the opposite.  I land nose high all the time, and consider a flat landing to be a sign of too much energy in the landing.  The one possible exception might be in strong wind conditions, when excess speed can aid control and might lead to a flatter landing.

 

None of which is to say I have not landed flat a time or two.  But not intentionally.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I find it difficult to keep the nose wheel off the surface once the mains have touched. Sometimes it comes down quicker than others. But, even with my ideal power off touchdown with flaps 30, it comes down quickly. Not like our local RV pilots who seem to be able to keep the nose wheel off for a significant distance.

 

However, if I do a power on touch down (soft field) and keep the power on, I can keep the nose wheel off until I go to 2000 rpm. Then it comes down.

 

Herein lies the whole point of this thread.

 

The CT needs a higher skill level to keep the nose gear elevated and it shows in the number of CT nose overs.  In a CT if you want the skill to avoid nosing over in a hole that you can see and avoid then you need to practice more than if you had an RV or other design.

 

If you can't land and roll out without contacting your nose-wheel then you can't do a soft-field landing.

 

If you can't do a soft field landing then you are probably not prepared for un-prepared or poor landing surfaces. (you don't know its soft until you land)

 

If you can't do a soft field landing and have an emergency then you probably want to pull. (I would prefer to land but not if I have to nose over)

[Ed Cesnalis]

I was not saying CTs land flat, you read that into my response.  In fact, I find just the opposite.  I land nose high all the time, and consider a flat landing to be a sign of too much energy in the landing.  The one possible exception might be in strong wind conditions, when excess speed can aid control and might lead to a flatter landing.

 

None of which is to say I have not landed flat a time or two.  But not intentionally.

 

I hear you.  I'm saying you can't be short of full aft in a CT and still be in the nose high camp.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Hi Ed,

 

This isn't what I said. 

 

"Curious logic Roger uses, he admits that CTs can taxi with their nose wheel elevated yet claims they can't land and roll out with them elevated?"

 

Re-read my post and at least quote me.

 

It can be done if you abandon a normal landing and it can't be done if you really do a full stall landing.

 

This is your quote,

 

"What makes the CT different is the nose wheel will settle in a fraction of a second if you don't hold it off.  Even if you hold it off you have limited pretty limited time without some power. "

 

Just like I said. Not much holding off in a fraction of a second.

You can't land the CT like you always tell me at full flaps, full stall, no power and keep the nose off and roll out. This is how you have always described your landings. Plus if you are going to land in the bushes your aren't going to do that with power or you would have flown somewhere else. You land in the bushes because you have nothing left. So a keep the nose off the ground won't happen and that's the perfect time for your full stall short roll landing.

 

"If properly trained, I think we all do different types of landings with different types of runway surfaces. For grass and poorly surfaced runways , I try to keep pressure off of the nose wheel,"

 

Bingo. 

 

"(keep the nose wheel up), as long as I can ."

 

And in a CT that is very short. When those mains touch that front is coming down.

 

Roger,

 

I did paraphrase some but did a pretty good job.  You are still arguing that the front is coming down and I say I can do a soft field landing in my CT and keep that nose wheel elevated for the distance necessary.  This skill is useful even on hard but uneven surfaces to avoid a nose over.

[FastEddieB]

If properly trained, I think we all do different types of landings with different types of runway surfaces. For grass and poorly surfaced runways , I try to keep pressure off of the nose wheel, (keep the nose wheel up), as long as I can . However at KLAL with 8500' of smooth pavement not so much.

 

Cheers

We all have our own habits and techniques.

 

If I'm at KLAL with 8,500' of runway, my touchdown is virtually identical to what I use on a short or soft field, the goal being to touch down with minimal energy, whether on smooth pavement or grass or dirt.

 

Just curious, why would you not land similarly on runways of any length? It's good practice, if nothing else.

[Ed Cesnalis]

And in a CT that is very short. When those mains touch that front is coming down.

 

 

Here's a Skyhawk clearly demonstrating the skill.  It does him less good because he has a poor view of upcoming holes but he can do it for soft surfaces as well as avoiding holes he can't see.

 

You can do this in a CT the technique is the same, prior to the nose wheel settling advance the throttle sufficient to keep it off.

 

In a CT with 30* flaps you and actually see any visible holes, yet we are the design that always goes over.

 

 

One reason  you guys think you can't do that is you land without enough flaps and too flat.  This puts you below any sort of balance point.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

 

Still apples compared to oranges and takeoffs not included here. 

"Skyhawk"

You're right here other Skyhawk pilots most likely aren't going to debate this.

Would you have a glider pilot land like this. He's in a plane too, but they are different.

Apples to apples. CT to a CT.

It just isn't a one size fits all debate or technique. 

 

 

Show  me a video of a CT doing this nose off the runway roll with no power in your full flap stall landings since that what we are talking about (not takeoffs) and I'll back you 100%.

 

Most pilots could probably do it on a takeoff roll with power and a little speed and they won't be using 30-40 flaps. As soon as the CT touches the mains it has an immediate slowing and dropping of the nose. At full stall you can pull back all you want on the stick, but the nose will be on the ground and the planes lift to lift the nose is gone.

If a hole on any runway is large enough to cause the entire plane to nose over then it is more likely going to break the nose wheel back and up into the bottom of the cowl. To make a CT completely flip takes a lot more energy than just damaging the nose gear.

 

 

 

 

"Avoid nosing over - here's the drill"

[sandpiper]

Here's a Skyhawk clearly demonstrating the skill.  It does him less good because he has a poor view of upcoming holes but he can do it for soft surfaces as well as avoiding holes he can't see.

 

You can do this in a CT the technique is the same, prior to the nose wheel settling advance the throttle sufficient to keep it off.

 

In a CT with 30* flaps you and actually see any visible holes, yet we are the design that always goes over.

 

 

One reason  you guys think you can't do that is you land without enough flaps and too flat.  This puts you below any sort of balance point.

 

Exactly!! But, I will say that it helps to have the power on as the mains touch.

 

In fact, isn't that the definition of a soft field landing? To touch as slowly as possible. To do that you need some power.

[FlyingMonkey]

I hear you.  I'm saying you can't be short of full aft in a CT and still be in the nose high camp.

So I fail if my goal is full aft but don't quite get there on every landing? I'm glad you don't write the PTS.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I'm uploading an old video to youtube right now.  

 

video shows

• nose down approach with flaps.
• stick goes full aft prior to mains contact
• nose is high as mains contact
• nose wheel takes 3 seconds to settle

During those 3 seconds I can leisurely advance the throttle to keep it up as long as I like. 

[FastEddieB]

 

In fact, isn't that the definition of a soft field landing? To touch as slowly as possible. To do that you need some power.

Important point. One can actually land more slowly with some power, just as power lets one fly more slowly in slow flight.

 

The drill of holding the nose off and then transitioning to a soft field takeoff without the nose ever touching is an excellent drill that I think every pilot should be proficient in.

[Ed Cesnalis]

So I fail if my goal is full aft but don't quite get there on every landing? I'm glad you don't write the PTS.

 

No you fail to achieve the habits it takes to do soft field landings in the CTSW you are still in the camp that experiences a nose wheel that settles immediately on contact.  Isn't that the result that leaves you helpless to avoid a hole?

[FlyingMonkey]

No you fail to achieve the habits it takes to do soft field landings in the CTSW you are still in the camp that experiences a nose wheel that settles immediately on contact.  Isn't that the result that leaves you helpless to avoid a hole?

You said the nose wheel settles immediately on contact, not me. What I said is that when the mains settled, additional back pressure is required to keep the nose wheel elevated. You assume that means I don't apply the required back pressure and just let the nose drop, which is not what I do.

 

I'm a pilot, not a passenger.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I never said that, the whole point here is to have the skills to avoid the nose wheel contact to avoid nosing over if there is a hole.

 

The only thing I"m assuming is if you are not getting your stick full aft you are not landing at minimum speed and you probably can't be getting your nose very high when you use flaps.

 

Stop taking what I say personally.  Roger is arguing that it can't even be done, most CT pilots I see couldn't do it.  Its hard to do in a CT, if you don't get a dramatic flare at the end the you are going to settle real kwik.  If you do the 15* fly it on its practically a 3-pointer and in a tri 3-pointers are fast not slow. If you don't use at least 30* you risk a tail strike.

 

Solo your balance is quite forward, the balance point moves with cg and power.

[gbigs]

 

Sounds like you are driving everyone to do a soft field takeoff and landing everytime, even on a hard runway.

 

Takeoff: full flaps, brake on, stick full aft, full power, brake release, the nose starts to pitch up so the stick has to be pushed forward right away as the plane leaves the runway short of rotate speed and while in ground effect get to rotate speed, then fly as normal in Vy or Vx.   http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/soft-field-takeoff/

 

Landing: cross at 1.3Vso, full flaps, slow to just above stall speed 1 to 2 feet above the runway level, lightly touch the mains and pulling stick full aft to keep the weight off the nose wheel (and possibly have it still off the ground).  http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/soft-field-landing/

 

But why do this unless you are landing on grass or dirt?  Esp when you have a perfectly good hard runway.