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CTLS crash at Fon Du Lac airport in Wisconsin.

Al Downs

By Al Downs
in CT in the News

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FlyingMonkey

FlyingMonkey

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Posted

Wonder whether he was high enough to have deployed the parachute.

 

I think at low altitude like that, from the time the stall/spin starts, you have *very* little time to pull the handle.  You'd have to be on it, RIGHT NOW, as soon as the wing starts to drop.  Most of us are going to try to control the airplane instead, and by the time we realize it can't be saved, we are too low to get a full deployment.

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gbigs

gbigs

Posted
Posted

I think at low altitude like that, from the time the stall/spin starts, you have *very* little time to pull the handle.  You'd have to be on it, RIGHT NOW, as soon as the wing starts to drop.  Most of us are going to try to control the airplane instead, and by the time we realize it can't be saved, we are too low to get a full deployment.

 

What is the min agl to get full deployment in the CT?

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FlyingMonkey

FlyingMonkey

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What is the min agl to get full deployment in the CT?

 

Nobody knows for sure.  In my mind, under 400ft would be "risky" and under 200ft would be "doubtful".  This is assuming you are in a normal glide; if you are plummeting to Earth with a 2000fpm descent rate, those numbers will be much greater.  I assume three seconds minimum from time the rocket fires to it usefully slowing down the airplane, so at 400ft and 500fpm or even 1000fpm descent rate, that works just fine.  At 200ft it works as well, but the margin is not nearly as good.

 

The chute can slow the plane pretty rapidly; the Cirrus that did the 184kt deployment (outside the 130kt deployment speed, BTW) went from 184kt forward speed to 15kt forward speed in something like five seconds, in a 4g deceleration.  The CT deployment max speed is the same as Vne, 145kt.   

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gbigs

gbigs

Posted
Posted

Nobody knows for sure.  In my mind, under 400ft would be "risky" and under 200ft would be "doubtful".  This is assuming you are in a normal glide; if you are plummeting to Earth with a 2000fpm descent rate, those numbers will be much greater.  I assume three seconds minimum from time the rocket fires to it usefully slowing down the airplane, so at 400ft and 500fpm or even 1000fpm descent rate, that works just fine.  At 200ft it works as well, but the margin is not nearly as good.

 

The chute can slow the plane pretty rapidly; the Cirrus that did the 184kt deployment (outside the 130kt deployment speed, BTW) went from 184kt forward speed to 15kt forward speed in something like five seconds, in a 4g deceleration.  The CT deployment max speed is the same as Vne, 145kt.   

 

That's my point.  Without knowing what the min agl is for the FD chute it is not possible to use it effectively.  It is a glaring hole in the POH and a problem for all CT drivers.  Cirrus is very clear about the numbers...how low, how fast, and under what circumstances.   Unless all of that information is known CT drivers have to guess....sometimes no doubt with unfortunate outcomes.

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FastEddieB

FastEddieB

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Nobody knows for sure.

 

Same for the Cirrus:

 

From the SR22T POH:

 

"Deployment Altitude

No minimum altitude for deployment has been set. This is because the actual altitude loss during a particular deployment depends upon the airplane's airspeed, altitude and attitude at deployment as well as other environmental factors."

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gbigs

gbigs

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Same for the Cirrus:

 

From the SR22T POH:

 

"Deployment Altitude

No minimum altitude for deployment has been set. This is because the actual altitude loss during a particular deployment depends upon the airplane's airspeed, altitude and attitude at deployment as well as other environmental factors."

 

Not true, the min altitude is published in the Guide To Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) for all model planes  and on the Cirrus Training Portal (access is given to all owners, new and existing).  Cirrus has a lot more documentation than just the Pilots Operating Handbook (which refers to the other documents for detailed information), for instance there is also the Cirrus Perspective Guide (the size of a phone book), Pilots Operations Guide (just as important as the POH), and manuals for the Harztel prop and Continential engines.....all of which are provided to all owners and must be read and referred to in order to safely operate the plane.

 

These numbers are also provided at the factory during CAPS training by factory CSIPs...and are the numbers given to all current CSIPs in the field.   The POH is written generically and is not the source for specific current information on CAPS deployment but does provide generalized information on CAPS deployment.  The CAPS training/documents includes min altitude (600 feet agl for the SR22T)  maximum IAS speed (140KIAS) and the circumstances under which deployment is to be first considered, like ICING,  and SPIN for example. 

 

Eddie is apparently playing the COPA gotcha game splitting hairs (I doubt Morden or anyone else here cares about this level of detail) and ignoring the generalized point being made about the fact that the Flight Design does not document in ANY form or in ANY literature on what the minimums are for the parachute, or what the max airspeed or under what circumstances to use BRS.

 

Current online CAPS recurrence training providers (in case you need a refresher Eddie): http://cirrusaircraft.com/flight-training/caps-training/

Older version of the CAPS guide (the current one is a book handed to new owners at the factory)   http://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/CAPS_Guide.pdf

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Runtoeat

Runtoeat

Posted
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My friend was fueling his twin engine Beech at Fon Du Lac and said the weather was so poor that although he is IFR certified, he elected to delay his departure and wait for the weather to improve.  During his fueling, he heard the crash.  People immediately ran to the Flight Design.   Afterwards, the 1st responders told my friend when they got to the wreckage, they originally thought only the pilot was on board.  The engine was in the cockpit and needed to be removed to get to the pilot.  While removing the engine, the responders determined there was also a passenger, beneath the pilot.  My friend also said those who actually watched the Flight Design depart said that just after gaining a few hundred feet, the plane made a 180 back to the airport.  During the turn, the observers indicated they saw the plane bank steeply and then it nosed directly into the ground.  Both occupants were flown by helicopter to the hospital and are badly injured.  This information is not official and was provided to me by my friend.   My prayers are with both occupants.

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Tom Baker

Tom Baker

Posted
Posted

What is the min agl to get full deployment in the CT?

Back in either 07 or 08, the then national sales director sent out a email to dealers stating the figure was 165 feet IIRC. I have switched computers a few times since then, and no longer have the email.

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sandpiper

sandpiper

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Nobody knows for sure.  In my mind, under 400ft would be "risky" and under 200ft would be "doubtful".  This is assuming you are in a normal glide; if you are plummeting to Earth with a 2000fpm descent rate, those numbers will be much greater.  I assume three seconds minimum from time the rocket fires to it usefully slowing down the airplane, so at 400ft and 500fpm or even 1000fpm descent rate, that works just fine.  At 200ft it works as well, but the margin is not nearly as good.

 

The chute can slow the plane pretty rapidly; the Cirrus that did the 184kt deployment (outside the 130kt deployment speed, BTW) went from 184kt forward speed to 15kt forward speed in something like five seconds, in a 4g deceleration.  The CT deployment max speed is the same as Vne, 145kt.   

 

Andy - I thought that our BRS-1350HS model chute was good for more than that.

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gbigs

gbigs

Posted
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just after gaining a few hundred feet, the plane made a 180 back to the airport. 

 

This sounds like an impossible turn was attempted which resulted in a stall and loss of control. 

 

Tom, each model has a different minimum according to the CAPS guide.  For example. the current SR22 is 400 feet agl.  The SR22T 600 agl.  The training you get at the factory and from CSIPs is to set the altitude bug for what they call "CAPS altitude" as part of pre-takeoff runup.  Once the you hit the altitude the callout "CAPS available" is supposed to be part of standard procedure.

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Howardnmn

Howardnmn

Posted
Posted

Even at very low altitude -- e.g., <50ft -- wouldn't a chute pull help reduce horizontal speed?  ...in certain circumstances, say a controlled emergency landing on a rough/plowed field or over body of water and don't want to flip?  

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