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Due to lots of complaints, some of recent, and posters that can't quite keep it together with snarky aggression the Admins had a long discussion. We are kind of at witts end. We are in the last quarter with ten seconds to go, 3rd down and behind 2 points on the ten yard line. It isn't any fun to by an admin and get as many complains as we do. We have had hundreds and all because of just 4-5 people.

The open NASA post which has nothing to do with LSA was kind of a social experiment and it failed. It was attempt to be a more hands off self governing forum.  It works some, but there are a few here that make people leave our forum and or don't post for fear of aggressive reprisals. We have gone over this type of aggressive behavior time and time again. We have tried to not be a dictator type governing body as you have seen on some sites. If you have been on the Vans site or dealt with their admin you'll know exactly what I mean. If the admin or Mfg person doesn't like you your gone for little to no reason and they won't tell you why. Several members have ask us to intervene on many occasions. We had only ask that politics, personal attacks or aggressive postings be aired out some place else. Admins are limited to what choices they have to make sure that a forum is a safe, non hostile and friendly place to hang out and exchange ideas, information and fun flying. 

The forum admins has some rules; we can lock a thread out, we can send private emails to stop unwanted behaviour, we can suspend a member and last, but not least the worst thing we ever want to do is ban someone. This is reserved for people that just refuse to stop bad behavior when requested to multiple times and from multiple complaints from other forum memebers. 

 

The forum should be a hostile free environment that all can come to and post or read without fear of posting or asking questions and they shouldn't be put off by aggressive behavior.

The forum used to be hostility free and we just didn't have aggressive posters.

So the only avenues open to the admins to help protect the other 98% either means control what type of post are posted, suspended members and for repeat offenders just get rid of them.

Post should be limited to LSA flying and maybe an occasional stray, but that should  be the exception and not the rule. As we have become friends we share something nice like Andy's car, but it shouldn't turn into negative 20 page arguement.  Bottom line, stop turning a post about a sunny day into an argument. 

If you don't like someone and or dislike their post and just can't bring it upon yourself to be decent in a rebuttal or a discussion please just ignore it and move on. Life won't end and no life will be lost if you fail to intervene,

 

 

I'm going to leave this open for a couple of days to get some feedback. Maybe it's time to revisit some rules? Take the time to think about what you may post. I always told me people if you have a complaint, No problem, but think about it before you present it and have 1-2 ideas for a solution.

 

We ALL MUST get a handle on this,

The Admins

 

 

p.s

The ball's in your court let's see what you can do.

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History appears to be repeating here.

Some of us on this site go back to the original 'less than two dozen' at the first CT Fly-in, and then current site. We also remember the reasons for the creation of this newer site.

I must concur with the Administrator comments and concerns. Those are some of the reasons that our participation over the past several years is minimal.

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The political stuff is actually very strictly prohibited on many forums because of how much of a personal issue it is for people. I believe PoA has removed the spin zone forum because of spillover. This I agree with, leave the political stuff out.

 

The second thing is to pay attention to the insults and aggressiveness; including the subtle backhanded stuff. It's just creating animosity.

 

I think we can deal with the rest.

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Looks like people are getting a handle on what's wrong which I think is easy to see.

 

Like the Admin suggested, What do you all think they should do?  I think we all agree what the problems are.

 

What are the solutions?

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Since my name came up...

 

My working solution has been to de facto ignore a member.

 

What I mean is I still read their posts, but refuse to engage them directly, even when I'm referenced in a post.

 

If their post contains incorrect or hazardous advice, I will just PM the person who asked the advice.

 

A recent example? The advice to pump high pressure air into a pitot tube. I felt a need to warn against such advice, but again did not wish to get dragged into a back-and-forth that experience tells me virtually never has a good outcome.

 

Similarly, I read the NASA thread with bemusement, but choose not to post there - seems like a colossal waste of time. I have no problem with political threads - it's easy enough to just not click on them.

 

Anyway, that works for me. YMMV.

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Roger:

 

Why reinvent the wheel? 3 strikes works well. Warning, warning, ban. Bans can be escalating too. First might be 7 day time out. 30 days after that. Permanent after that.

If a person can't handle themselves even after two warnings, then they don't fit in.

I would like to depart from the topic a bit for a moment. I don't necessarily think the NASA thread is a bad thread in theory. The issue is it became a thread used to talk more about things negatively. That is the core of the issues in my mind. I feel like it's a hate thread. Maybe that's not the intention, but that's what it *feels* like.

If the thread focused more on what NASA is doing or could be doing, I think it would attract a lot more friendly conversation. Thar said though, the topic itself already pushes a negative tone so it's hard to steer things positively.

That said, there might be one more proposal that I have. If a thread is taking a turn towards negativity, a reminder is in order to keep things positive. If that can't be done, remove the offenders from the thread with a warning via PM. If the thread itself is just a hot button for posters, just lock it stating this isn't the place.

I love the idea of free speech and discussion. What I don't like is if I am trying to get away from the stress, visit here, and just find more of it. I do not believe that "Speaking softly, but carry a big stick" is censorship, as anyone can make a web forum for their circle of interests. That said, I am very in favor of taking the forum in the direction of targeting one particular circle of interest: Flying, LSAs, and giving each other a hearty pat on the back for their accomplishments.

I've ran over a dozen forums. Trying to make everyone happy isn't possible. When you try, you end up catering to the lowest common denominator and a lot of good people leave for greener pastures.

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When I first came here I 'assumed' given the name of the site name 'ctflier' the board was about the Flight Design CT and it's owners.  And was informed the board allowed anyone to post anything and those commentors may or may not own a FD CT. 

 

The comments made were not to be personal, political or derisive and any comment that offended would be dealt with either by ignoring the commentor and/or using the Report button to complain.  The administrator then made a judgement about the comment and either removed the comment or explained the comment was allowed.

 

At present most of the board threads involve general aviation and CT specific subjects.  A few threads lately have veered off aviation entirely like the discussion on cars or are of a personal nature like the "i have rejoined the ranks".  IMHO the NASA thread is a combination of aviation and politics...  I have no problem participating in or ignoring entirely anything discussed on the board.

 

"Post should be limited to LSA flying and maybe an occasional stray, but that should  be the exception and not the rule."    Does this mean no discussion of other aircraft types that are not LSA?  For example, under Incidents, should only LSA accidents be posted? Does this mean the NASA thread is dead as well as the car discussion and any other new threads like these?  Before opening a thread should that content be passed by the administrator first to make sure it aligns with what is desired on the board?

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Seems like ADMIN has enough history now to make the call.

 

If the issue had been brought up a year or 2 ago, then I'd have advised the 3 strikes rule as describe by Anticept be enacted then.

 

But if you already know from experience the 2% of users that are causing the problems described, and they have been advised multiple times already (an assumption on my part), then ban them now and let's move on. No one is paying to use this resource. It's a privilege.

 

At the same time announce the 3 strikes rule is in effect immediately.

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I frequently read this forum as a guest since I sold my CTLS in '10. Loved the plane but this forum and its camaraderie made it all the best. Roger and Tim put this together after the previous forum self imploded due to all kinds of infighting. The goal was to exchange information, make friends and plan trips (like Page). We never, ever had any problems here for years and I honestly don't know who is the culprit. I may have an inkling but that person is on my ignore list which handles that easily. I just wish it would go back to where it was a few years ago...

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I agree with all of the above. I was here before all this started. I have, on occasion been warned informally for my responses. I have also received a number of PMs from members struggling with some of the posts. I am willing to abide by the group and admin's wishes as long as the rules are clear and enforced with fairness and evenhandedness.

One issue that has come up is what is to be done about posts that are obviously wrong understandings of flight or mechanics. Some here feel those posts have been purposeful provocations and need to be responded to. That often leads to a degeneration in the conversation. I don't know how this should be handled.

I would also request that non CT related information be moved to the Random Thoughts thread.

Thank you for revisiting this issue. This is too valuable a resource to have it diluted by the constant divisive side issues.

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Deja vu, all over again.  I've lost count.  Admin (and everybody else) knows how to fix this site.  Sorry, but the "what are the solutions" question is a cop out.  The solutions are obvious.  Some of us has asked for them for years, now.  

 

This isn't Facebook, this isn't the place to fight over global warming, this isn't the place to talk about the latest Piper that crashed, this isn't the place for anything other than CT Flier talk (or, whatever else the admin says this is the site for).  Really, been said over and over.

 

I'm sure very few here care if I come or go.  Whatever.  I have an E-LSA CTsw.  I do all my own maintenance.  Working with a FD service center, I installed its new engine.  I have landed the thing almost 2700 times in my 700 hours.  I land it routinely on 600 feet of runway.  But, I never get involved in the discussions here about landing FD aircraft because the discussion is populated by those who are informed and those who are uninformed and it never goes anywhere.

 

I'm sick of the noise here (my problem, not yours).  I went and got myself a RANS S-20 kit and I'm building an airplane.  Funny, the RANS Clan and the VANS builder sites don't have this problem.  They don't put up with it.

 

So, admin, sorry if my comments aren't sufficiently contrite.  This used to be a great resource, but it's power to weight ratio has gotten pretty unfavorable.  Admin - asking us how to fix the site you administer is not the solution.  You know the solution.  We all do.

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Thanks for the straight forward honesty Fred.

Yes, one action and a couple of rules - with enforcement would fix the problem. Admin, we have an individual here who has purportedly been booted from a number of other forums. This person does not own, fly, or repair CTs, Light Sport or Rotax, yet, they continue to cause issues here. You can pretend it is only people's reaction to them that matters, but that is simply untrue. You are not doing your job.

 

I have had to fire people on rare occasions in the past. It is not a simple decision and not enjoyable, but in the end, you know what is good for the organization so you do it.

 

I will abide by your decision, but I talk to people who are in the LS/Rotax industry who are entertained by the things that go on here - and even they know where the problem is. I may regret posting this tomorrow, but I do not see anything I have said as untrue.

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Some here feel those posts have been purposeful provocations and need to be responded to.

Bear in mind we have a member here who actually boasted of trollish behavior on another forum after being banned - or encouraged to not renew his membership - there.

 

I think that speaks volumes and should carry some weight as the admins decide once again the proper course of action.

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FredG, on 28 Aug 2016 - 11:30 PM, said:snapback.png

Deja vu, all over again.  I've lost count.  Admin (and everybody else) knows how to fix this site.  Sorry, but the "what are the solutions" question is a cop out.  The solutions are obvious.  Some of us has asked for them for years, now.  

 

This isn't Facebook, this isn't the place to fight over global warming, this isn't the place to talk about the latest Piper that crashed, this isn't the place for anything other than CT Flier talk (or, whatever else the admin says this is the site for).  Really, been said over and over.

 

I'm sure very few here care if I come or go.  Whatever.  I have an E-LSA CTsw.  I do all my own maintenance.  Working with a FD service center, I installed its new engine.  I have landed the thing almost 2700 times in my 700 hours.  I land it routinely on 600 feet of runway.  But, I never get involved in the discussions here about landing FD aircraft because the discussion is populated by those who are informed and those who are uninformed and it never goes anywhere.

 

I'm sick of the noise here (my problem, not yours).  I went and got myself a RANS S-20 kit and I'm building an airplane.  Funny, the RANS Clan and the VANS builder sites don't have this problem.  They don't put up with it.

 

So, admin, sorry if my comments aren't sufficiently contrite.  This used to be a great resource, but it's power to weight ratio has gotten pretty unfavorable.  Admin - asking us how to fix the site you administer is not the solution.  You know the solution.  We all do.

 

Concur totally.

 

plus ONE

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I see CT Flier as a place to learn, exchange ideas, meet people and further the pursuit of our LSA segment and in particular the CT series of aircraft.   Freedom of speech at the constitutional level shouldn't be confused with freedom of speech in a targeted forum.  CT Flier isn't a government and should feel free to impose reasonable standards of conduct for all to abide by.  I love the idea of warning, warning, ban for 7 days, ban for 30 days, ban for life.  Five strikes and you are out.   Adding value, being thoughtful of others, furthering legitimate debate on topics are all fair game.  The handful of people who are clearly out of bounds detract from the beneficial activity and enjoyment of all - thus limiting the potential of the forum.   Thank you to those who expend effort to create this opportunity to interact with other CT pilots and owners.  I can't imagine owning a CT in a vacuum without the benefit and access to others that this forum provides.

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From what I have observed over the years is I think many here are great. There are some really nice people out there and they may not always agree, but they are adult enough to agree to disagree without any hard feelings or personal attacks. There is always personal choices and more than one way to skin the proverbial cat with our likes and dislikes. 

Remember Chevy's and Ford's.

 

I see some here doing exactly like the admins hoped to stay away from. People singling out and skirting the fringes and making it personal. 

 

"Bear in mind we have a member here".

 

There is more than one example here on our forum.

 

It hasn't been just one person and it seems to me that the big majority of members are doing a good job, very friendly and many have become friends here. It boils down to 3-5 members. It used to be worse over the last 2 years or so ago and has become better, but some don't seem to be able to let go of the past.

I think admins are looking to make sure there is equality all around and have tried hard to allow freedoms that are not allowed on Vans site and a few others. Sometimes equality is different in other people's mind.

 

Crossing a line for one isn't for another and it can put an admin in a precarious position. I see some good ideas here and many we have tried to live by, but it's tough to decide sometimes who crossed the line first, how bad did they cross that line and HOW STRICT do you want admin to tow that line. I think everyone should be allowed at times a little leeway. It comes down to a couple of admins trying to make all members happy at one time and not be heavy handed.

 

This is why we are asking for some forum input.

 

 

p.s.

People here have referred to Van's site a couple of times.

Many here would have been kicked off Van's website long ago for a lot less than goes on here. I hope this site never evolves to the type of administration administered on Vans. The admin there is well known for being heavy handed and he post that comment on his own page. That's like having Saddam Hussein back in control. Say what we want to hear and you can live, step out of line and you're gone. There are many post other places from disgruntled members.

The dictator admin there does not apply rules evenly and tosses people all the time and if Scott Riser at the top of Vans doesn't like you he makes a call and you're gone forever, guilty or not no appeals. They do talk about Van's aircraft and there is some really nice and helpful people, but it's a very sterile website and administered with prejudice. Make a bad comment about one of Van's employees and your gone. A lot of comments like the ones about FD insolvency and other post that attack an individual would have gotten people tossed off under their admin.

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Agreed Eddie. Not sure why admin either does not see it or has reason to protect them. There was supposedly a name change because of stalking, I was told not to use his old name but the name history is readily available on this site. Can admin make sense of that? Has anyone other than them made such a request? I have been told not to use personal pronouns with this person, but it is not applied in both directions. Can admin explain this?

They no longer own a CT.

And here I am talking like this because of your threats to me and avoiding using the name. Can admin explain this?!

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I think admin makes a good point  - while nobody wants a brawl, neither does anyone want an anaemic forum where you can't debate something vigorously and thoroughly.

 

In my view, the 'acceptable line' is crossed as soon as one person in a debate takes a personal swipe at the other.  Often these are innocuous little comments, but they are always personal in nature and they always succeed in changing the debate into a personal fight.   

 

I would also add that I have observed more than one person here making such comments.  It always takes two to tango.

 

I would suggest that anyone who makes disparaging remarks about another individual should come under the three strikes rule - no questions asked.

 

Cite a few examples of what this entails so everyone is clear on it to start with.

 

That might keep the discussion lively, but without allowing it to descend into innuendo or insult.

 

 

 

(Such comments are usually emotive in nature rather than factual, and they are a clear invitation to argue personally rather than debate a subject.  For example, I would say that Post 28 in this thread is a good example of the type of comment that should be banned.)

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