Newbee with landing flap questions.

[Buckaroo]

I guess there's still one question I have! On a max gross full flap go around how are the flaps handled?

[gbigs]

I guess there's still one question I have! On a max gross full flap go around how are the flaps handled?

 

You always takeoff with 15 flaps.   That does not change on a go around from a touch and go.  If you are still airborne and over 50kts just push throttle full and switch to 0 or -6 flaps at positive rate of climb.  Also, once you reach level flight set flaps to -6 for best cruise.

[SportFlyer1]

Max flap go around:

 

Full power, nose no higher than level until 62kts (flaps 30/35 speed limit).

Raise flaps to 15 degrees and raise nose for positive climb at Vy, 67kts.

When at least 150 agl (I like 500), raise flaps to zero and climb at Vy, 73kts.

 

Job done. This is all from the CTLS POH and a little personal experience. The CT will climb like its on steroids at any positive flap setting. In fact Flight Design considers zero flaps to be "some" flaps and the Vfe is 100kts. After that its -6 for cruise.

 

I spent the day today going round and round Goodyear airport with new solo students form China in the pattern, that was exciting. My impression for the day was that the flaps are super duper effective. Which is to say that if you want the CT to act like a normal plane around the pattern, I found zero flaps to be the best. If I set 15 degrees at top of descent the plane will never descend, so zero through base feels better to me. On final, 15 degrees will get you that 54kts, but your descent will vanish unless you keep the nose down some. I did one landing at 30 degrees, but had to dive at the numbers to keep 54kts. The landing wasn't the best, there was so much lift that any backstick movement produced a climb, which was unnerving at 4 feet over the runway and 40kts.

 

For a long runway like Goodyear, zero flaps is fine and feels more like other planes I've flown.  Have fun with it Buckaroo, that is a mighty pretty plane you have.

[Buckaroo]

Nice info SportFlyer1! Your post just imprinted in my brain!????????????

[FredG]

Buckaroo - According to his signature line, SportFlyer1 posted information for a CTls.   According to your first post, you are flying a CTsw.  They are not the same airplane.  I might advise caution on imprinting all of his post in your brain.  

[Buckaroo]

I just washed my brain!

 

I still don't understand the full flap go around! In a Cessna with full flaps you carefully ease them out of 40 degrees and never dump them quickly. You fly ground effect gain speed and working the flaps up gradually.

 

Now the CT has flaps that when raised you almost have to dump 10 degree increments at once. So if I'm correct in a go around where you slow and almost on the runway with 40 degrees of flaps and slow you add full power and do what with flaps until you say back at 15 and climbing?

 

We have deer and Antelope coming out of nowhere quite often around here!!

[Roger Lee]

You can add power at 40 flaps and increase speed and altitude. Before you start reducing flaps from 40 make sure you have a bit of altitude because you will sink. Do it in steps. Going from 40 to 30 isn't near the sink as it is from 30 to 15. If you dumped 40 to 15 on top of the runway you will contact the runway. Prop pitch has an effect here too. If you are over propped and at idle prop rpm is slower to come onboard in case of an emergency. Being properly propped and leaving a bit of rpm in on landing gives you almost instant rpm to save your butt. I have demonstrated this to many that fly Rotax aircraft with over pitched props and low rpms and they were absolutely amazed at the instant rpm and speed recovery that would be available during an emergency go around. It is night and day.

 

Bottom line I would stay away from 40 flaps until you are PROFICIENT at 15. Then go to 30 flaps. 40 flaps is not much different than 30. For a while you can leave some rpm in when using 30-40 flaps too. It will slow the sink rate some and give you much better authority over the tail and direction and it will allow the prop rpm to come online faster in case you need to go around.  Think of this as one of your slow steps. Don't be in a hurry to try 40 flaps. If you do use 30-40 flaps and get in trouble like bouncing on the runway just add full throttle, level the nose and start a climb to a safer altitude before dumping the big flaps. You're not in a hurry here. Don't get the nose way up in the air when dumping the flaps. Get the speed up and level the nose. The sink will be less when you switch.  

 

If on landing and you're at idle and you bounce twice do not bounce a third time. Add power and go around. The third bounce has been the kiss of death and you will trash the gear. By the third bounce the plane is usually too slow and you'll drop the nose. Remember while bouncing you lose speed every time. This has led too many to crush the nose wheel from dropping.

 

 

Many have their own landing preferences here and that's okay. Just remember there is more than one way to land and it may be a tad different for each pilot. Learn in steps and then pick what works best for you as you learn. The whole idea on landings is to be safe and save the plane from hard external forces that cause extra stress and or damage. We want to reuse the plane as much as possible.

 

Also learn all the ways because there are times one way will be better over another. Not all fields, winds and runway lengths are the same. Being narrow minded in your landing techniques can put you in a bad place.

[Buckaroo]

Excellent instruction Roger! I'm glad she will accelerate with level go around and then proceed to climb with 40 degrees of flaps!

 

My check out ride by a non experienced CFI in the CT next week will be interesting. I have zero time in CT and so will he. I'm going to talk him out of full flap work all together. I'll work into that work later.

 

Here is Montana things are usually learned by do it yourself!

 

Roger enjoy your Thanksgiving!

[Tom Baker]

The CTSW will accelerate and climb with full flaps. If you have to go around put in full power accelerate to at least 55 knots and go to 30° flaps. Accelerate to 60 and go to 15° flaps. Now you are in a normal take off and climb. Be aware that when you remove flaps the airplane will want to settle, but IIRC for the CTSW the biggest jump is when going from 15° to 0°.

[FlyingMonkey]

I meant to comment yesterday, I guess I missed the rush, this thread got big fast.

 

I think the best landing settings in the CT are 15 and 30. I generally use 30 in calm winds, and 15 if the wind is more than 8kt or so. Calm wind landings at 30 are a pleasure; 52kt as suggested is perfect, but if I'm solo and winds are dead I will use speeds down to 48kt and that works really well.

 

For 15 flaps I generally use 57kt on base slowing it to 55kt on final. If the airplane and winds are both light I like 52kt over the fence. I try for a touchdown speed of ~45kt.

 

Landing at zero flaps might be advised in some conditions, but honestly I have not yet seen a condition when it was required. I did it in Beaumont Texas when the wind was 24G32, just out of caution. But BIll Ince landed right behind me at 15 flaps with no problem. And the zero flap setting made my flight path shallow and low, I had less altitude margin. And I don't like how the airplane feels landing at that setting; anything less than 60kt and the airplane want to sink. It seems like you have to keep a little power in it. I'm not a fan.

 

40 flaps is what I call "emergency flaps". I would use it to stuff an airplane into a very short field on engine out. Othewise I don't love it. It might buy you a knot or two lower touchdown speed, but there is a cost. All of the 30 flaps behaviors are magnified. The airplane runs out of energy in the flare RIGHT NOW, and if you misjudge it you will have a drop in, carrier-style landing. The Navy has not approved the CT gear for carrier landings. Also you have less roll control because of the flaperon design, and I have felt like I was almost out of roll authority with a cross wing gust at 40 flaps.

 

Here's how I look at it: I'm trying to maximize my chances for a successful landing. For me, that means whatever flap setting I use, I want the landing to be as slow as possible. In any wind down the runway greater than 8kt, and any crosswind over 4kt, I will use 15 flaps. That setting gives better roll control, gust penetration, and the touchdown speed is still only 2-4 knots faster than 30. For calm wind conditions less than noted above, 30 is preferred to give slowest touchdown possible. I practice 40 flaps on calm days, but I would only use it as a last resort. 30 flaps with a slip comes down faster and lands at practically the same speed.

 

For training, I'd practice 30 flaps on calm days, but I'd train the most in 15 flaps. And learn to slip the CT! It is great at slips and you can land in any reasonable conditions using 15 flaps plus a slip. When you are comfy at 15 and 30, try 40 and see what you think.

 

All of this is my opinion, clearly there are others!

[FlyingMonkey]

The CTSW will accelerate and climb with full flaps. If you have to go around put in full power accelerate to at least 55 knots and go to 30° flaps. Accelerate to 60 and go to 15° flaps. Now you are in a normal take off and climb. Be aware that when you remove flaps the airplane will want to settle, but IIRC for the CTSW the biggest jump is when going from 15° to 0°.

15 to 0 is a definite big settle change at 60kt or so. At 65kt it's less pronounced. 0 to -6 can barely be felt.

[gbigs]

Buckaroo - According to his signature line, SportFlyer1 posted information for a CTls.   According to your first post, you are flying a CTsw.  They are not the same airplane.  I might advise caution on imprinting all of his post in your brain.  

 

Correct.  Sportflyer does not own or fly a CT.

[SportFlyer1]

I think you'll find the CTLS numbers are representative of the CT breed. Perhaps someone with experience in both models, like Roger Lee, can comment on any differences.

[sandpiper]

Roger,

 

You are giving zero credit to the rule of prime-acy.  If landing flaps is where we end up it is where we should begin.  Look how much work it took Dick to overcome.

 

I transitioned from flying a Cessna/Mooney combination (I know I do have experience in very light aircraft as well).  The 'easy' approach was never mentioned and I was through my transition training in just over an hour.

 

You guys have made landing this plane unnecessarily 'hard and scary'.  My local CFI is high time yet he can't land my CT.  Not because he has to learn without flaps but because he won't adjust his sight picture.  He holds it off 4' too high in the air.  Because pilots often do this at first the rest of you all land without flaps and with too much speed afraid that your planes are going to bite you but the fear is misplaced.

 

Buckaroo will take one approach or the other and almost for sure it will determine how he flies the CT forever.  Pilots don't take the warnings and avoidance of using flaps and just get over it one day, primacy rules.

 

While it is being claimed that I am not doing anyone any favors, it is the new conventional wisdom here that is doing  disservice, not me.

 

You are right about that! I didn't know I was supposed to have a problem landing until after I started reading this forum.

[sandpiper]

CT, I saw a guy on TV juggling running chainsaws. If I were to decide to learn to juggle chainsaws would your recommendation be to start out with running chainsaws based on the "Law of Primacy"? I think maybe I should learn to juggle something else that is a little safer first.

 

The "Law of Primacy" doesn't mean that you should jump to full flap landings first. It means you should be taught proper landing technique, such as power at idle, and stick back landing on the main gear. Learning to fly requires that you build a sound foundation before you start adding the more intricate parts. The same would be true when transitioning to a new airplane.

 

You mention the high time CFI who uses the wrong site picture. The only way to get the right site picture is by doing landings. With full flaps the airplane is much less forgiving if you get to slow with the wrong site picture. By starting with 15° flaps and using the same technique, ( this is where the Law of Primacy comes into play), that you use with full flaps he would have time to make the adjustments to get the correct site picture. After the site picture is achieved he can then move to more flaps for landing

 

It's been a long time since I first got my CFI. Forty-six years to be exact. But I do the renewal every two years and try to keep up. Is the law of primacy being take a little out of context? I think Tom is a little closer to what it means than CT is.

 

What I was always taught about the law of primacy is that when all turns brown, and immediate response is required, you will resort to first learned responses. Very applicable to a go around, not so much about using flaps 15 vs. flaps 40 for landing. Definitely applicable to stall recovery technique.

 

For what it's worth I am in the flaps 30 to 40 range for landing (conditions permitting) but I would always start out a newby with flaps 15 and would not move on to more flaps until proficiency was achieved.

[sandpiper]

You can add power at 40 flaps and increase speed and altitude. Before you start reducing flaps from 40 make sure you have a bit of altitude because you will sink. Do it in steps. Going from 40 to 30 isn't near the sink as it is from 30 to 15. If you dumped 40 to 15 on top of the runway you will contact the runway. Prop pitch has an effect here too. If you are over propped and at idle prop rpm is slower to come onboard in case of an emergency. Being properly propped and leaving a bit of rpm in on landing gives you almost instant rpm to save your butt. I have demonstrated this to many that fly Rotax aircraft with over pitched props and low rpms and they were absolutely amazed at the instant rpm and speed recovery that would be available during an emergency go around. It is night and day.

 

Bottom line I would stay away from 40 flaps until you are PROFICIENT at 15. Then go to 30 flaps. 40 flaps is not much different than 30. For a while you can leave some rpm in when using 30-40 flaps too. It will slow the sink rate some and give you much better authority over the tail and direction and it will allow the prop rpm to come online faster in case you need to go around.  Think of this as one of your slow steps. Don't be in a hurry to try 40 flaps. If you do use 30-40 flaps and get in trouble like bouncing on the runway just add full throttle, level the nose and start a climb to a safer altitude before dumping the big flaps. You're not in a hurry here. Don't get the nose way up in the air when dumping the flaps. Get the speed up and level the nose. The sink will be less when you switch.  

 

If on landing and you're at idle and you bounce twice do not bounce a third time. Add power and go around. The third bounce has been the kiss of death and you will trash the gear. By the third bounce the plane is usually too slow and you'll drop the nose. Remember while bouncing you lose speed every time. This has led too many to crush the nose wheel from dropping.

 

 

Many have their own landing preferences here and that's okay. Just remember there is more than one way to land and it may be a tad different for each pilot. Learn in steps and then pick what works best for you as you learn. The whole idea on landings is to be safe and save the plane from hard external forces that cause extra stress and or damage. We want to reuse the plane as much as possible.

 

Also learn all the ways because there are times one way will be better over another. Not all fields, winds and runway lengths are the same. Being narrow minded in your landing techniques can put you in a bad place.

 

What Roger said.

[gbigs]

It is not necessary to do a short field landing (full flaps) in the CT to land it on paved runways with adequate length (1000 ft or more).   I have landed the CT on 30 foot wide rolling runways of 700 feet on an Indian reservation with 15 flaps.  The plane is light and the wing wide.   The POH is the operating guide for the aircraft and it does not say to use full flaps on landing under calm winds and standard runways.

[George in San Diego]

​I fly a CTLS which is not a CTSW but one thing is sure...just because your friend holds a CFI certificate and you both are LEGAL to fly Single Engine Land, based on what I'm reading here, neither of you have a clue what you're in for.   Roger has given the best advice yet in my opinion (and he is the CTSW man).  If I may, I'd like to add a bit more.

 

​Considering what you paid for this airplane, what's another $1,000 or $1,500 to take a few days and go to another state by car or commercial aviation to a flight school with a CT specialist and take the Flight Design Transition Course.   I came into mine with 600 hours in small Cessnas and I will tell you my transition training was the best money I could have spent.  Just swallow your Montana pride and pilot machismo and DO IT.  You will thank all of us later (and you might find your insurance company may not even talk to you without said training!)

 

All you hot jocks might laugh, but I made 15 landings before I started to get the hang of it...all of them 62 kts with flaps 15.  Once I got better at it, I tried one at 30 with the CFI to see what happens.  I distinctly remember the (then) National Sales Manager of Flight Design (John Gilmore)  telling me to never use more than 15 degrees of flap until I have 50 hours in the airplane. Ultimately this was good advice.

 

Pointers from my experience, FWIW

1) Sight picture:  Due to the wide cockpit, you will land sideways with right Main forward if you use the Cessna sight picture. centerline must be in the left corner of the windshield. This took me a while to get used to.

2) There is no stall warning horn in these things (No one has mentioned that yet).  Don't wait for the noise as there won't be one.  Watch the air speed.

3) Stick forces are easily manageable due to the powerful stabilator. Keep the Trim on the marker and just put the stick where you want.

4) The problem with the 62 kt approach is the airplane is still flying and will probably float. Pilot induced oscillations will happen.  Go EASY on the stick.  Go AROUND

5) Buckaroo asked several times about reconfiguring flaps at GoAround.  I don't have the POH handy but it says the airplane will climb in any flap setting.  Indeed, it climbs better with flaps...the more flaps, the more it levitates like a helicopter! Just keep the nose down and enjoy the view. Touch and goes can be taken literally, touch, hit full power and go. Simple. No mixture, flaps or gear worries. Just fly the airplane!

6) Finally, I use 30 degrees most of the time now, but it does require more sense of precision to get it just right.  Someone mentioned how it doesn't want to descend and this is true. 62 kts with 15 means it probably won't follow the VASI. I  was taught to switch to flaps 15 at 80 kts. pitch for 75 on base to get down, turn final, pitch back for 62. If right, you'll get to the numbers. If too high (usually) you might have to forward slip or just use a lot of runway.  I found at my home field I had to come in low with all four VASI lights RED to land the 62kt approach.  Normal 30 degree landings at 48-50 kts follow the glideslope more like a C-150 coming in at 60.  I should add that I am usually well under Gross.

 

This is serious and I can't emphasize it enough...Get a CFI totally experienced in your airplane type. These things are light as a feather and are great fun but they are not your grandfather's Piper or Cessna.

[Duane Jefts]

George, This is the type of information that is very valuable for the newer CT owners. Your info is spot on.

[Buckaroo]

George I think as a CFI with 3000 hours and my check CFI who has a million hours kinda have a clue about what we're getting into!

 

With that said I appreciate your recommendations and value you CT tips! I don't think were tackling a P51 or SR 71 in this fine little aircraft. I have a total of two landings under my belt and can imagine some of the traits others have mentioned. I understand the aircraft is light and will fall out of lift easily. Also I understand that one doesn't want to bounce fight bounce and fight again. If I bounce a bit power will gently be given and if things look dicey a go around will be initiated. My plan is to gradually proceed with flaps as knowledge increases. I can expect to be able to accelerate and then climb out with full flaps in go arounds.

 

Where did I develop this understanding? Right here in this forum!

 

The beauty of this forum is with a few new questions I have learned a host of instructoral tips that will help me figure this out.

 

Thanks everyone!

[gbigs]

George I think as a CFI with 3000 hours and my check CFI who has a million hours kinda have a clue about what we're getting into!

 

With that said I appreciate your recommendations and value you CT tips! I don't think were tackling a P51 or SR 71 in this fine little aircraft. I have a total of two landings under my belt and can imagine some of the traits others have mentioned. I understand the aircraft is light and will fall out of lift easily. Also I understand that one doesn't want to bounce fight bounce and fight again. If I bounce a bit power will gently be given and if things look dicey a go around will be initiated. My plan is to gradually proceed with flaps as knowledge increases. I can expect to be able to accelerate and then climb out with full flaps in go arounds.

 

Where did I develop this understanding? Right here in this forum!

 

The beauty of this forum is with a few new questions I have learned a host of instructoral tips that will help me figure this out.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Good plan.  You won't bounce unless you put the nosewheel down first (porpoise).  The plane may drop if you fly to stall and are more than 3 feet above the runway but it will stick once it's on the runway.  Some seem to think a 1200lb mass object is a feather like thing.  It's relative sure, most aircraft are far heavier, but when you put a thousands pounds on a hard runway it tends to stay there unless you start flying again. 

 

One of the fun elements of the aircraft is how touchy the stick is....compared to other planes it really is feather like - a two finger affair.  You may feel like you are hovering if you have much of a headwind but as you lose energy (throttle idle) just keep pulling the stick back until in is all the way back and you lose authority....the plane will land. 

[coppercity]

Having a couple thousand hours teaching in CT's, (CTLS,CTLSi,CTSW,CTMC) I can tell you this little airplane is a blast but can be humbling to the most experienced pilots.  Go in with an open mind and don't get stuck on "well that's how we do it in other airplanes" mentality.  The best way to approach the CT is to start with 15 deg flaps approaches until you really figure out what straight is and how "low" you look during the round out.  I recommend performing multiple low approaches prior to your first touchdown.  I guarantee your instructor will be telling you to add right rudder and you will be telling him to add left rudder just prior to touchdown.  Its a strange view initially.  You have to be patient in the flare in order for the speed to bleed sufficiently for a nose high main gear touch, most people land to early and to flat "three point".  You have to go easy on the pitch initially to prevent ballooning no matter what flap setting, once the nose is slightly above the level point in the flare the drag really starts increasing, then the required pitch increases significantly (this is where most land flat) but just keep increasing pitch and you will be rewarded with a nice main gear touch, assuming you are at the right altitude.  Leaving a touch of power in all the way to the touchdown is beneficial when your first starting out.  Once you have mastered the 15 flap landing you can move to the 30 and 40 flap landings assuming winds are favorable with little crosswind.  Surprisingly the approach descent rate is not significantly higher, just a slower approach speed and steep deck angle.  Energy runs out quickly in the level off and flare.  40 degree flaps can yield a wing drop at higher pitch attitudes near stall angle of attack, 30 flaps actually stalls a little slower based on my experience.  Enjoy.  If you or your instructor are in need of any help don't hesitate to ask.

[Buckaroo]

Great positive and encouraging advice! Thanks to all!

[sandpiper]

Having a couple thousand hours teaching in CT's, (CTLS,CTLSi,CTSW,CTMC) I can tell you this little airplane is a blast but can be humbling to the most experienced pilots.  Go in with an open mind and don't get stuck on "well that's how we do it in other airplanes" mentality.  The best way to approach the CT is to start with 15 deg flaps approaches until you really figure out what straight is and how "low" you look during the round out.  I recommend performing multiple low approaches prior to your first touchdown.  I guarantee your instructor will be telling you to add right rudder and you will be telling him to add left rudder just prior to touchdown.  Its a strange view initially.  You have to be patient in the flare in order for the speed to bleed sufficiently for a nose high main gear touch, most people land to early and to flat "three point".  You have to go easy on the pitch initially to prevent ballooning no matter what flap setting, once the nose is slightly above the level point in the flare the drag really starts increasing, then the required pitch increases significantly (this is where most land flat) but just keep increasing pitch and you will be rewarded with a nice main gear touch, assuming you are at the right altitude.  Leaving a touch of power in all the way to the touchdown is beneficial when your first starting out.  Once you have mastered the 15 flap landing you can move to the 30 and 40 flap landings assuming winds are favorable with little crosswind.  Surprisingly the approach descent rate is not significantly higher, just a slower approach speed and steep deck angle.  Energy runs out quickly in the level off and flare.  40 degree flaps can yield a wing drop at higher pitch attitudes near stall angle of attack, 30 flaps actually stalls a little slower based on my experience.  Enjoy.  If you or your instructor are in need of any help don't hesitate to ask.

 

 

Perfect advice. The part I highlighted is very common. If I haven't flown in a while I fall right into that trap.

[IrishAl]

There's something else that may be of help to you in this thread:

 

'CFI considering CTSW for flight instruction'

 

In particular, look at post 15 and the final two posts.

 

It seems to me that much of the transitioning issues with the CT come from the lack of a visible cowl and the fact that the pilot's seating position is not close to being parallel to the centre line; both these factors seem to require a major mental rearrangement of 'normal' cockpit references.  

 

I think the advice offered should help with this issue.