FlyingMonkey Posted April 28, 2017 Report Share Posted April 28, 2017 No reason to change any "O" rings other than the two on the carb sockets. You change "O" rings when you start pulling parts off. No reason to do that here. What about the o-rings for the valve covers? Since you have to open them up to do the purge, I'm guessing replacement is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 28, 2017 Report Share Posted April 28, 2017 Hi Tom, That sounds really high. I'm down around $1100. My guess in the difference is where and what we buy. Did you look at my list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2017 Are there "economy" vs "premium" hose changes? Something else to worry about!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 28, 2017 Report Share Posted April 28, 2017 Hi Tom, See comments below. CTSW Rubber Replacement Parts List 1. 17mm water hose 922-250 1.5m 2. 90° water tube 922-192 1 3. Spring clamp 851-645 see note 1 2 4. 1” radiator hose See note 2 .6m 5. Oil hose 956-390 1.5m 6. Fuel hose 7.5mm See note 3 4.5m 7. ¼” fuel hose see note 4 3.5 feet 8. Tube 81mm 956-141 2 9. O-ring 230-910 4 10. O-Ring 230-300 see note 5 2 11. Gasket ring 430-622 2 12. Gasket ring 950-143 5 13. Carb kit 999-521 1 14. Flanges 267-789 2 15. O-ring set 881-920 1 16. Oil filter 825-012 1 17. 90° oil fitting 956-585 see note 6 1 ( technically not part, but I replace to straighten oil hose return) 18. Fire sleeve FCS1406 see note 7 1 19. Fire sleeve FCS1006 see note 7 1 20. Oetiker clamp 19.8 6 21. Oetiker clamp 13.3 6 22. Oetiker clamp 14.5 15 23. Band-it clamps JS2529 23 24. Fiat Blocks Roger Lee see note 10 16 25. Gascolator Gasket AS 06-00441 1 ( why change this or the item below unless they are leaking?) 26. Quick drain valve CCA-1550 1 27. Fuel sight tubes See notes see note 11 1 (In the wing inspection) 28. Straight Nipple See note 13 1 (what's this for) 29. Sparkplugs NGK DCPR8E 8 Just curious about some of these. All the bold highlights aren't really part of a hose change. They might be further maintenance you want to do, but not the hose change itself. Why change fire sleeve unless you have to make new because of a hose length and routing change. Like the return line off the bottom of the engine back to the oil tank. Why change the spring clamps? There is nothing in print on when to rebuild carbs. What about the 3" CEET air intake tubes and the 1 3/4" CEET heater tube on top of the muffler that many times has a hole in it. I replace all three of these tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 28, 2017 Report Share Posted April 28, 2017 Roger, some of these were explained in my notes, but I will go over all you highlighted in order. 3. Spring clamp The newer 90° water hose has a thinner wall thickness. The old clamps do not provide enough clamping pressure, and the hose can leak. 10. O-ring This is the O-ring that goes between the carb flange and the intake manifold. You said these needed changed in a earlier posy, and I agree. 11. Gasket ring. these are the rings that seal the banjo fitting on the bottom of the engine. I take this fitting loose to replace the hose, and per Rotax I replace the gaskets. 12. Gasket ring. These are the five that seal the fuel distribution block on top of the engine. I was taught in Rotax class that you always change these, and I do. 13. Carb kit. This kit includes the diaphragm that is required replacement, I also feel this is a good time to replace the float needle and inspect the carb. With this kit it has everything that is needed. 15. O-ring set. Since the oil lines are opened up during the hose change a pressure purge needs to be done. As part of the procedure I remove the rocker covers to check that all the air is removed from the lifters. Per Rotax I replace the O-rings. 16. Oil filter. I agree that it is not part of the hose change. However I always change the oil when doing a hose change, so I change the filter. 18 and 19. Fire sleeve. I don't replace all of the fire sleeve. I only replace the longest section. I find that by the time the fire sleeve is going through its second hose change that the fibers on the ends are not sealed up like they should be. To clean up the ends I trim some off, and this will make the piece to short. So by replacing the longest section of fire sleeve I can use it as a hand me down for the next shorter section and so on. When finished my ends are professional looking instead of looking like a hacked up job. 25. Gascolator gasket. Based on 35 years experience working on airplane these gaskets are one of the most neglected. At minimum they should be replaced at the rubber replacement, they really should be replaced more often. 26. Quick drain valve. It is kind of like the gascolator gasket. Most don't go much beyond 5 years before they will start leaking. I would rather take a proactive approach. 28. The straight nipple. These should have been installed as part of the firewall blanket kit. For that reason alone I will install one if it is missing when doing a hose change. An added benefit is that it makes cleaning the fuel filter easier. 29. Sparkplugs. I always change sparkplugs at the condition inspection, which I have always done when doing a hose change. I know this may seem a little over the top, but the gaskets on the sparkplugs are designed to be a onetime use gasket. I will add the CEET to the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 I kinda want the Gold premium hose package. How do I insure my local Rotax guru does this package? I don't mind paying for the top job as my wife, granddaughter and my lives may be on the line! Just saying!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 Hi Tom, Some of my thoughts. Roger, some of these were explained in my notes, but I will go over all you highlighted in order. 3. Spring clamp The newer 90° water hose has a thinner wall thickness. The old clamps do not provide enough clamping pressure, and the hose can leak. I've never changed these and never had a leak so long as the clamp for all 17mm hose is placed properly up by the flare underneath on the metal tube. If the clamp gets place too far back I have seen a few 17mm water hoses leak. I just re-position the clamp and the leak stops. 10. O-ring This is the O-ring that goes between the carb flange and the intake manifold. You said these needed changed in a earlier posy, and I agree. I agree. I'm in Mexico and pulling most of this out of memory for numbers. 11. Gasket ring. these are the rings that seal the banjo fitting on the bottom of the engine. I take this fitting loose to replace the hose, and per Rotax I replace the gaskets. I just loosen this only enough to turn it. I just re-torque it. Never had a leak in 20 years. 12. Gasket ring. These are the five that seal the fuel distribution block on top of the engine. I was taught in Rotax class that you always change these, and I do. I don't loosen these. I just pull the hose off the end and put new on. 13. Carb kit. This kit includes the diaphragm that is required replacement, I also feel this is a good time to replace the float needle and inspect the carb. With this kit it has everything that is needed. I replace the diaphragm, but unless the carbs are indicating an issue I have never found any issues in all the years. 15. O-ring set. Since the oil lines are opened up during the hose change a pressure purge needs to be done. As part of the procedure I remove the rocker covers to check that all the air is removed from the lifters. Per Rotax I replace the O-rings. 16. Oil filter. I agree that it is not part of the hose change. However I always change the oil when doing a hose change, so I change the filter. Since my hose changes are done at annuals this always gets done. 18 and 19. Fire sleeve. I don't replace all of the fire sleeve. I only replace the longest section. I find that by the time the fire sleeve is going through its second hose change that the fibers on the ends are not sealed up like they should be. To clean up the ends I trim some off, and this will make the piece to short. So by replacing the longest section of fire sleeve I can use it as a hand me down for the next shorter section and so on. When finished my ends are professional looking instead of looking like a hacked up job. When I change the length of the hose off the bottom of an engine I do need a new fire sleeve. 25. Gascolator gasket. Based on 35 years experience working on airplane these gaskets are one of the most neglected. At minimum they should be replaced at the rubber replacement, they really should be replaced more often. Never had one leak, but doesn't hurt to change. 26. Quick drain valve. It is kind of like the gascolator gasket. Most don't go much beyond 5 years before they will start leaking. I would rather take a proactive approach. I don't do these unless they leak. Usually the owner would beat me to it if it leaks. 28. The straight nipple. These should have been installed as part of the firewall blanket kit. For that reason alone I will install one if it is missing when doing a hose change. An added benefit is that it makes cleaning the fuel filter easier. I agree these should have been done a many tears ago. That said I just had a 2007 that had hose through the firewall and had to fix it. 29. Sparkplugs. I always change sparkplugs at the condition inspection, which I have always done when doing a hose change. I know this may seem a little over the top, but the gaskets on the sparkplugs are designed to be a onetime use gasket. Plugs just part of the annual like oil unless someone can show me they are just a couple of hours old. I will add the CEET to the list. The 3" CEET holds up fairly well for a long time on the SW. The bottom heater hose CEET usually has a hole or one started. The Tubing on the back of the LS is easy to access when the engine is off and it wouldn't be very smart to let this go and try and do it later with the engine on. Like the rubber engine mounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 Roger, when you can easily rotate the clamp on the hose with your fingers it is too loose. I could even pull the hose off the elbow with the old clamps installed. Rotax changed to a new 90 hose and then introduce a new smaller ID clamp because of this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 My clamps on the 17mm elbow don't rotate and I pull on each hose.That 90 degree hose goes on pretty snug. Those spring clamps can be damaged if roughly handled. I had a hose on #4 come off in flight from the expansion tank one year. When I checked it I found the hose OD was at a minimum compared to others and the clamp was closer to the outer max limit. You could pull that off too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 Roger, Having had a several of these loose over the years, including the 2 I did this past year, I take a proactive approach and order a pair of clamps when I order parts. They add $10-$15 to the total cost of parts. If I don't order them and find the issue like happened the first time you still have the cost of the parts, plus another $15 dollars shipping. Besides the shipping if you have a leak changing out the clamps will require draining coolant back out, and a 2 day delay finishing the project waiting on the parts. Some of the other things you addressed: The Gasket rings on the banjo fitting. If I loosen the fitting I replace the gasket rings per Rotax guidance. You saying you never had one leak in 20 years is not good enough for me. I find it easier to remove the distributor block fittings to service the hoses. If you don't take them loose that's fine. For the carbs, I figure at 5 years it is a good time to do an inspection and thoroughly clean the carbs. I replace the float needle based on Lockwood's recommendation saying that at 6-7 years the tip can start having issues. I have found idle jets that were partially plugged. I have never had any issues with the carbs after servicing them either, but I am comforted in knowing that the customer will likely not have any problems with them over the next 5 years. I think I have addressed everything else pretty well for the reason I replace the parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 Last item and often missed is the exhaust springs. Most mechanics never check the hooks on the springs for wear. I do find them at hose change about 40%-50% of the time worn 30%-60% through. These all get replaced when I find wear of at least 25%. Vibration is the killer. Springs aren't expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 I agree, I replaced the springs on the airplane whose work order I used to make my parts list. I consider these to be an on condition item, and have not found all airplanes need replacing at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 I always keep two sets of springs around. I bet I replace. 3 out of ten sets of springs at the 5 year change. It's also on my annual check list to specifically look at the spring hooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 Hello Roger and Tom! Ok I appreciate your complete listing of things that need change out on the all important 5 year hose replacement. I copied and pasted your posts on my notepad. Now when I introduce these change out items to my mechanic expert at Rocky Mountain Kit Planes in Fairfield Utah are they going to recognize all these procedures as the typical hose replacement? I've read this post and for my safety want all of these things done. Am I asking anything above and beyond the normal 5 year replacement when asking for all your listing items be addressed? I asked in my posting a few days ago are there economy vs gold hose replacements? I can picture variations in quality of detail and costs being critical to safety! I'm interested in only the best detailed complete work. I never got a reply. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 Any listing of what items are recommended by Rotax on the 5 year service?? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 Rotax is firewall forward and it's in the Line Maint. Manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 Thanks I'll check it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 Dave, My list is pretty complete for the rubber replacement and other items I do when performing the rubber replacement. For me I consider it the premium package. I replace every piece of hose. I clean up the fire sleeve ends so they look new and professional. I replace every O-ring and gasket where a part is disassembled or loosened. I replace some extra stuff based on my experience of 35 years working on airplanes. I try and take care of anything that needs to be done while the airplane is apart and you have easy access to perform the work. Looking through the work orders ELT batteries is one that stands out. If you have the 121.5 Ameri King ELT also check for when the remote battery was replaced. ELT remote batteries is one item I see other maintenance shops routinely miss. Also check the fire extinguisher expiration date. Everything else will be maintenance items that are replaced or repaired as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 Thanks Tom! I copied your list and will ask Rocky Mountain Kit builders if they will do all those items. It might cost more but it makes sense that those items be looked at. I'm really loving my plane. I took my wife up for the first time yesterday and the Air was calm and smooth and she had a ball. Here in Montana she sure attracts the attention. I put NASA stickers on each side of the cowl and people ask funny questions about it being a NASA special aircraft!???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 The hose change does require some special tools that the shop may or may not have. They will need a Band-it clamp tool. I use this one, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002SRDDC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I use these for the Oetiker clamps. https://www.amazon.com/Oetiker-14100082-Standard-Pincers-formerly/dp/B00375LRKC/ref=pd_bxgy_328_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00375LRKC&pd_rd_r=Q9ST40W53Q21F2YS5NQ3&pd_rd_w=HeiLP&pd_rd_wg=6Vuj3&psc=1&refRID=Q9ST40W53Q21F2YS5NQ3 I use this for cutting the hoses, and it will also cut the fire sleeve. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-edge-utility-cutter/p-00937309000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&gclid=CIWfloCqzdMCFZS1wAod_LQE0A&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CIDxyoCqzdMCFZUoaQodak8B2Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 "Getting ready to order hose replacement kit questions??" I mean no ill will, but we have gotten off a rubber hose change path. If you order any rubber hose kit from any of the service centers you get very little of what is listed. Just the Rotax described rubber replacement parts. We're not talking just about a hose change any more. What Tom really has is an extended maint. list he does at the same time as a hose change. All those extra items can be done at other times to spread out the cost and still get his list done. Half his list should be addressed and inspected every annual and not just at a 5 year hose change. If you want to continue Tom's train of thought then replace the front strut pin and red polyurethane spacers, always replace exhaust springs. My point is where does it stop. The question is what rubber hose and associated rubber parts. The Rotax rubber parts replacement is firewall forward and applies to rubber parts or the few others worn parts you may find in its path. If you want a full extended maint. list like Tom's just follow the Rotax and FD maint. check list. It's much easier on most people to spread these things out,some are on condition and some timed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2017 Roger thanks I'm starting to understand this a little better now. I think I'll talk to them about the basic package and then price Toms complete list and see where I sit financially. I'll probably end up backing some things out based on their idea of importance. I've budgeted $3000 for this work. I think this outfit in Fairfield Utah does aircraft paint, carbon fiber and fiberglass repair, complete Rotax work and more. My friends Rans 7 flipped over from a dust devil and they put a new fuselage on it and repainted and repaired the wing cover. I just don't dare talk to them about my budget!???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 1, 2017 Report Share Posted May 1, 2017 "Getting ready to order hose replacement kit questions??" I mean ni ill will, but we have gotten off a rubber hose change path. If you order any rubber hose kit from any of the service centers you get very little of what is listed. Just the Rotax described rubber replacement parts. The only service center that offers a hose kit is CPS that I am aware of, and the kit is based on your recommendations. I will not use that kit. The 5/16 fuel hose included in the kit is a poor choice, because it doesn't fit all the fittings through out the airplane. Plus I have not been able to find documentation that it meets the DIN specification called for in the Flight Design parts list. We're not talking just about a hose change any more. What Tom really has is an extended maint. list he does at the same time as a hose change. All those extra items can be done at other times to spread out the cost and still get his list done. Half his list should be addressed and inspected every annual and not just at a 5 year hose change. If you want to continue Tom's train of thought then replace the front strut pin and red polyurethane spacers, always replace exhaust springs. My point is where does it stop. The question is what rubber hose and associated rubber parts. First off my list includes 10 out of 31 items that are not directly part of the rubber replacement. They are included in the list because it is cost effective to do them with the rubber replacement. I don't like that you claim to know my train of thought. your assessment of my train of thought couldn't be further from the truth. My goal is to provide a safe airplane to my customer. My list is based on my training, experience, and input from others whose knowledge I trust. It seems our different experiences has lead us to a different idea of what parts should be replaced. My list contains parts that I choose to replace and you choose not to replace. My decision to replace these parts is based on Rotax guidance, which it seems you choose not to follow based on personal experience. The Rotax rubber parts replacement is firewall forward and applies to rubber parts or the few others worn parts you may find in its path. Can you show me in writing where it says that the rubber replacement is just firewall forward? The Rotax list includes all rubber fuel supply lines. Do the supply lines stop at the firewall, or do they really mean all? I take all to mean all, so I relace all. If you want a full extended maint. list like Tom's just follow the Rotax and FD maint. check list. It's much easier on most people to spread these things out,some are on condition and some timed. Is my list expanded beyond the basic hose kit, well yes it is. The reason it is expanded is because the basic hose kit will not have all the parts you need to complete the rubber replacement. In addition to the extra parts needed to complete the rubber replacement I included some that are cost effective to replace while doing the rubber replacement instead of waiting until later. Like engine mount rubbers and fuel sight tubes. My list also includes a oil fitting to upgrade the oil return line, a change that you endorse. The straight nipple included in my list should already be installed, but I included it because of seeing airplanes where it had not been installed as part of the firewall blanket kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2017 Can I buy the full listing of items from you and have them shipped to me? That way I can take everything to the repair station and sort out the costs and priorities of each. If so how much $$. I want new fire sleeves mine are fugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 1, 2017 Report Share Posted May 1, 2017 I don't really want to put a complete package together. Items 1-5, 8-17, and 29 can be purchased through any of the Rotax parts distributors. I included a place to purchase item 6 in my notes. Item 7 can be purchased locally at any auto parts store. Items 25, 26, 30, and 31 can be purchased from Aircraft spruce. I buy item 27 from FDUSA. I have gotten item 28 when needed from either Roger or Lockwood. Item 24 comes from Roger. Items 20-23 I purchase from wherever I can get the best deal. Most of them I purchased in quantity, I might be willing to put a clamp kit together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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