Spinning the CT

[CT2K]

Not knowing how the CT recovers from a spin, I've been tempted many atime to enter it into a spin to see how easy/challenging it recovers, but the manual says something like "spinning forbidden", to which I eventually got chicken and never dared try. Has anyone out there found themselves in such a situaion, voluntarily or not, and how their CT behaved? Please share your CT spin experiences should you have met any and tell us how it recovered.

[Roger Lee]

It's an absolute no no. The only time the FD factory got in trouble and needed the parachute was in a spin that wasn't recoverable. 

Playing with spins here can get you on the Darwin Awards list real quick.

 

It isn't worth the cost of your plane, plus you would be in violation of your aircraft regulatory agency in France since spins are forbidden.

 

If you don't want to make front page news in your area best leave the spins alone.

[Tom Baker]

It's an absolute no no. The only time the FD factory got in trouble and needed the parachute was in a spin that wasn't recoverable. 

Playing with spins here can get you on the Darwin Awards list real quick.

 

It isn't worth the cost of your plane, plus you would be in violation of your aircraft regulatory agency in France since spins are forbidden.

 

If you don't want to make front page news in your area best leave the spins alone.

 

Roger, this has been discussed before. Cessna had spin issues with the Skycatcher. The only issue that I am aware of that Flight Design had was a failure of the trim system during a dive beyond VNE. They had to pull the chute.

I don't know what rules the CT2K was built under, but the CTSW and CTLS built under ASTM standards had to be spin tested, though the testing is not near that required of a part 23 certified airplane.

[Scrapman1959]

A fellow I used to know who had extensive time in the CTSW, and lots of other AC as well, has looped the CT numerous times, and spun it just once. He has spun dozens of other AC, and said once was enough for him in the CTSW. He obviously recovered from the spin, but he said it spooked him with the speed that it started to rotate at. Very non conventional I think were his words.

[Roger Lee]

You can try and spin all you want it's your plane and skin. You'll need to decide if it was worth it in the end. Just isn't a good pilot choice.

 

I want to see anyone that has really looped a CT since it could easily cripple or pull the stab off.

 

If you have a video would be the only way I would believe this one.

[Tom Baker]

You can try and spin all you want it's your plane and skin. You'll need to decide if it was worth it in the end. Just isn't a good pilot choice.

 

I want to see anyone that has really looped a CT since it could easily cripple or pull the stab off.

 

If you have a video would be the only way I would believe this one.

 

Roger, I agree that spinning the airplane is probably not a good idea, without having the design go through a complete and extensive spin testing program. That being said your earlier statement that the only time Flight Design got in trouble and used the chute because of spin testing is completely false.

Over the years I spent time working the booth at both Sebring and Oshkosh. This allowed me time to ask questions of the people in the know. As a flight instructor doing flight training I specifically ask about having the CT approved for spins. This was from a one plane can do it all at a flight school type question. I was told the airplane had been spin tested and performed within the certification requirements, but they would not want the liability of having it approved for spins.

 

As for looping the CT I agree that it is a bad idea, but I doubt it would damage the airplane if performed properly.

[FlyingMonkey]

A loop done correctly is a 1g maneuver.  It should not endanger the stab...IF done correctly.  It's when things get botched that the danger arises.  I'm not going to try it.  My airplane has a placard that says "NO INTENTIONAL SPINS", and I'm happy to abide by that too.  

[Tom Baker]

A loop done correctly is a 1g maneuver.  It should not endanger the stab...IF done correctly.  It's when things get botched that the danger arises.  I'm not going to try it.  My airplane has a placard that says "NO INTENTIONAL SPINS", and I'm happy to abide by that too.  

 A roll is a 1 G maneuver. You experience 1 G flying straight and level. A loop will normally require between 3 and 4 G. You can certainly pull more, or do a lazy out of round looking loop with less. Still done properly it should not damage the airplane structurally. The one thing that would concern me the most is speed coming down the back side. You are going to have to pull pretty good or risk exceeding VNE.

[FlyingMonkey]

 A roll is a 1 G maneuver. You experience 1 G flying straight and level. A loop will normally require between 3 and 4 G. You can certainly pull more, or do a lazy out of round looking loop with less. Still done properly it should not damage the airplane structurally. The one thing that would concern me the most is speed coming down the back side. You are going to have to pull pretty good or risk exceeding VNE.

 

You are correct.  I should have said a loop *can* be a 1g-ish maneuver.  A true, round loop pulls more at the bottom.

 

And yeah, hitting Vne would not be hard in these airplanes, they are slippery.

[Roger Lee]

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. 

Loop 3g done right. Screw it up and ..... 

 

The landscape is scattered with all sorts of idiots. Just get on any road, so why do you think flying would be any different.

 

 

To my knowledge no CT is spin approved no matter who might have said they did one. It has to be factory approved and I seriously doubt that would ever happen. The factory liability passing this on to a user would be huge. It is also the only maneuver the factory had to pull a chute on in the early 2000's.

[Tom Baker]

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. 

Loop 3g done right. Screw it up and ..... 

 

The landscape is scattered with all sorts of idiots. Just get on any road, so why do you think flying would be any different.

 

 

To my knowledge no CT is spin approved no matter who might have said they did one. It has to be factory approved and I seriously doubt that would ever happen. The factory liability passing this on to a user would be huge. It is also the only maneuver the factory had to pull a chute on in the early 2000's.

 

Roger,

 

I agree that looping the CT is contrary to the AOI, and should not be done. What I do take exception to is the notion that a properly performed loop would structurally damage the airplane.

 

I also agree that spinning the airplane is contrary to the AOI, and shouldn't be done. I was merely pointing out that the per ASTM standards the CT had to be spin tested, which it passed with flying colors.

 

In your last sentence you make the statement in regards to spins, " It is also the only maneuver the factory had to pull a chute on in the early 2000's". I find this statement to be completely false. Flight Design did have a chute pull during flight testing, but it was totally unrelated to spinning the aircraft.

 

http://www.ultralightnews.ca/brs/saves/100.htm

[Buckaroo]

Has anyone gotten into a spin entry while practicing stalls? I did when I got my checkout and my CFI got frustrated at the burble and innocent buffet and kicked left rudder during a takeoff departure stall.

 

That scared both he and I how quickly she snapped over!????

[Tom Baker]

Has anyone gotten into a spin entry while practicing stalls? I did when I got my checkout and my CFI got frustrated at the burble and innocent buffet and kicked left rudder during a takeoff departure stall.

 

That scared both he and I how quickly she snapped over!

 

I have power off stall with 40° flaps in rough air. I had a transition pilot do the same thing, except rough air had nothing to do with it.

[ct9000]

An incipient spin or a 'wing drop stall' is a part of normal training and also during a flight review. Just pull up into a stall and as it starts to buffet stomp on full rudder. Wing drops this is the entry into a spin with full backstick and full rudder. Normal recovery not scary this a/c is very docile. Try it with an instructed if not confident. You loose about 200 ft.

[ct9000]

Re reading my last post I forgot to mention that this is not against the book. You do not exceed 60 deg. bank angle and it is not a full spin also it is not hard on the aircraft because of the very low airspeed. Even during recovery

[ausctls]

Do you have that on video?

[ct9000]

Do you have that on video?

Do I have what on video

[ausctls]

An incipient spin or a 'wing drop stall' is a part of normal training and also during a flight review. Just pull up into a stall and as it starts to buffet stomp on full rudder. Wing drops this is the entry into a spin with full backstick and full rudder. Normal recovery not scary this a/c is very docile. Try it with an instructed if not confident. You loose about 200 ft.

That bit

[ct9000]

No I do not video things but if you would like to discuss this or anything else you like, seeing you are in AUS feel free to call me I am in VIC 0408103868

[FlyingMonkey]

I find it hard to get a wing drop out of my CTSW.  I only got it to happen once at either 30° or 40° flaps (can't remember which), and a very aggressive pitch into the stall.  The right wing came down noticeably but not alarmingly, I countered with left rudder and recovered the stall normally.

 

Roger:  I don't think anybody is encouraging pilots to use the CT to do any of the aerobatic maneuvers mentioned, we are just saying that properly performed they should not pose a danger to the aircraft.  In theory, do not try this at home, all terms and conditions apply, void where prohibited by law (or FAR), your mileage may vary, etc.  

[TimTaylor]

I find that obeying the FAR's/CFR's and following the POH limitations gives me good results.  If you want to do aerobatics, rent an airplane certified for such.  Some aerobatic training will make you a better, more confident pilot.  While you're at it, get some additional instrument training.

[Tom Baker]

I find that obeying the FAR's/CFR's and following the POH limitations gives me good results.  If you want to do aerobatics, rent an airplane certified for such.  Some aerobatic training will make you a better, more confident pilot.  While you're at it, get some additional instrument training.

 

I don't think anyone has said anything to the contrary.

[CT2K]

Has anyone gotten into a spin entry while practicing stalls? I did when I got my checkout and my CFI got frustrated at the burble and innocent buffet and kicked left rudder during a takeoff departure stall.

That scared both he and I how quickly she snapped over!

  

An incipient spin or a 'wing drop stall' is a part of normal training and also during a flight review. Just pull up into a stall and as it starts to buffet stomp on full rudder. Wing drops this is the entry into a spin with full backstick and full rudder. Normal recovery not scary this a/c is very docile. Try it with an instructed if not confident. You loose about 200 ft.

This was exactly my point: not having experienced it on the CT, what/how to do should you find yourself in spin entry configuration?

 

Many thanks to all contributors who took the time to share their valuable knowledge and experience.

[Roger Lee]

"This was exactly my point: not having experienced it on the CT, what/how to do should you find yourself in spin entry configuration?"

 

The best fix here is to not put yourself in that position. After 37 years of flying I have never put myself in that position. Everyone is aware of and taught not to do things that put you in that situation. So don't.

[Tom Baker]

"This was exactly my point: not having experienced it on the CT, what/how to do should you find yourself in spin entry configuration?"

 

The best fix here is to not put yourself in that position. After 37 years of flying I have never put myself in that position. Everyone is aware of and taught not to do things that put you in that situation. So don't.

 

Roger, I started my flight training in 1978 at the age of 14. I had 2 years to wait before I could solo, all the while continuing training. I was lucky having to wait, because it allowed time for flight training that wasn't required for solo. Besides working on commercial maneuvers one of the things we did was spins. We did normal precision entry and exit as well as from accelerated stalls. I regard it as some of the most important training I have ever received. 

 

As a flight instructor it is also required training. A pilot can be taught to avoid spins, but a student can put you in one in the blink of an eye. When you wind up with the nose pointed down and rotating you need to know how to recover.