Tom Baker Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 6 hours ago, Buckaroo said: As a refresher if my left wing is almost dry and the right is showing say 3/4 full what is the fastest and safest method of getting fuel to the left wing? The tank holds 17 gallons, but I am going to use 16 as an example. 3/4 of 16 is 12. With 12 gallons your sight tube will still be completely full. With 3/4 showing on the sight tube you have 7.5 gallons, and the tank is over 1/2 empty at this point. Half on the sight tube is not half in the tank, it is more like a third. It is also worth mentioning again that the sight tubes are only close to correct when the airplane is wings and not slipping or skidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 What seems to be the main reason 10 gallons of fuel suddenly disappears causing the engine failure then reappears on the ground? This bothers me most as only one member had a opinion! Ten gallons is a lot of fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 Tom I'm really concerned I may of bought a potentially dangerous airplane! All my fellow airport flying buddies are alarmed that the fuel system can simply hide 10 gallons of fuel causing a engine failure. My confidence in this aircraft has been reduced substantially. I was getting to really love this aircraft and learning to fly it well. These fuel management procedures should be placarded in big letters on each CTSW before someone gets killed! Do other members and owners find this concerning? I think thanks to this forum I now know how to prevent this from reoccurring but for new owners or the uninformed these idiosyncrasies could be deadly! I guess I'll run full tanks and be heavy. I'll refuel at 1/2 tanks. I'll monitor the site tubes and watch yaw to balance tanks. Oh boy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 There is nothing wrong with the plane and GA aircraft can do the same thing. It's up to the pilot to learn the idiosyncrasies of each plane. There are 365+ CT's in the us and over 1800 worldwide and they don't have any fuel issue that cause engine outs. Has there been a few people run out of fuel. Yes, but that's the pilot's fault. Fuel management is easy so long as it's not neglected or someone isn't trying to split hairs with gallonage. A good idea is to get with another CT pilot on the phone or in person to learn the plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 28 minutes ago, Buckaroo said: Tom I'm really concerned I may of bought a potentially dangerous airplane! All my fellow airport flying buddies are alarmed that the fuel system can simply hide 10 gallons of fuel causing a engine failure. My confidence in this aircraft has been reduced substantially. I was getting to really love this aircraft and learning to fly it well. These fuel management procedures should be placarded in big letters on each CTSW before someone gets killed! Do other members and owners find this concerning? I think thanks to this forum I now know how to prevent this from reoccurring but for new owners or the uninformed these idiosyncrasies could be deadly! I guess I'll run full tanks and be heavy. I'll refuel at 1/2 tanks. I'll monitor the site tubes and watch yaw to balance tanks. Oh boy!! Like Roger said all planes require fuel management. remember back in the beginning when you joined this forum, and everyone was suggesting that you get a check out from a qualified CT instructor. Well this is one of the reasons why. It is not just about flying the airplane, but also knowing all of it's idiosyncrasies. Now you say 10 gallons, before it was 9. I really couldn't tell how much fuel you had from the picture, because you need new sight tubes. The real question is how much fuel did you really have. How did you determine you had 9 gallons in the tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vance Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 It may not have been 9 or 10 gallons. The 9 on the sticker is about where 4 or 5 would be on my airplane. And apparently the other side was empty. My rule has been to land with 10 gallons and monitor to keep drawing from both sides. That's not hard to do with a little practice. I think you can fly this airplane safely with a couple of minor adjustments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Buckaroo said: What seems to be the main reason 10 gallons of fuel suddenly disappears causing the engine failure then reappears on the ground? This bothers me most as only one member had a opinion! Ten gallons is a lot of fuel. Ten gallons did not disappear in flight and reappear on the ground. You were flying uncoordinated (probably a poorly calibrated ball) until the point where you transferred or consumed all fuel in one tank while sloshing the fuel in the other tank outboard. You continued in this slip until you starved your motor. At this point in time you can see no fuel (neither can your engine) so you think it disappeared. it didn't disappear you just lost line of sight) You applied a workable fix but quickly returned to the condition that caused the problem. You can prove this is the case. Go fly both sight tubes 3/4 full. Fly the pattern as you were and reference your sight tubes to notice you are not keeping their levels as they were on the ground. You have introduced a new fuel flow vector towards the trailing wingtip. Leave the pattern and fly straight and level but with different rudder settings to move your ball to different test positions. Reference the sight tubes, how rudder makes their levels go up and down and how they have a middle. Both sides have middle at the same rudder position and this is where you are coordinated no matter what your ball says. The proof comes when you see that your ball is wrong. You need to watch your sight tubes as you fly and make sure they are reading right and draining balanced. If you are ever with an empty wing then an intentional slip can keep remaining fuel inboard where you can watch the level and where it will flow towards the motor. This design is not new or unsafe but you cannot see your nose nor can you believe your ball so you have to watch your tubes and actively manage your fuel. EDIT: Don't forget the tanks are low/flat/long with baffles. If you slosh the fuel outboard it needs time to flow back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vance Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 I shoul note that I plan to land with 10, starting with sticking the tanks, not the sight tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 53 minutes ago, Tom Baker said: Like Roger said all planes require fuel management. remember back in the beginning when you joined this forum, and everyone was suggesting that you get a check out from a qualified CT instructor. Well this is one of the reasons why. It is not just about flying the airplane, but also knowing all of it's idiosyncrasies. Now you say 10 gallons, before it was 9. I really couldn't tell how much fuel you had from the picture, because you need new sight tubes. The real question is how much fuel did you really have. How did you determine you had 9 gallons in the tank? Good question on the fuel. My ground rescue team brought me a 5 gallon jug of gas. I placed that in the empty left tank and ran her up from 80 degrees to 122. Then I took off and returned 8 miles to the airport. This morning I stick tested the tanks and showed 5 in the left and 8 in the right. So 10 gallons remaining at the forced landing site is real close. Now your clear and knowledgeable instructions on fuel management make sense and sound reasonable. This is something I can learn and as long as that was the problem I can adapt to it. Im fresh off a forced landing and understandably concerned about details leading up to the event. I've flown over 3000 hours in many general aviation types and have never had a engine failure or even even gotten close to running out of fuel until now with 8 or 9 gallons still on board. I would really appreciate someone in the know explaining the right wing fuel tank interior design so I and others can envision how 9 gallons can sling out in a left 30 degree left turn and get trapped for a time! When I noticed the left wing empty one would think a simple left bank turn would of dribbled some fuel into the low tank! I know I skidded the turn! What if I didn't and it was coordinated? To be honest I never read or learned along the long winter of study readying myself for this plane the importance of fuel balance and engine failure. Instead my readings on this forum about fuel was balance, equal feeding while on cross country etc. I think someone was commenting on steep turns on a low fuel high wing. I think a fuel selector system would be a great safety system. It is obvious that this fuel system is an accident waiting to happen. Go ahead and jump on me I can take it as long as I or someone learns from it!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 Fuel selector work when you remember to switch tanks. Many a pilot has crashed with fuel in one tank and the other dry with the selector on the empty tank. Any system is only as good as the pilot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Roger Lee said: Fuel selector work when you remember to switch tanks. Many a pilot has crashed with fuel in one tank and the other dry with the selector on the empty tank. Any system is only as good as the pilot. In my case yesterday with fuel in the right side a turn from both to right should of grabbed that fuel and taken me home 7 miles. Roger can you briefly explain the layout of say the right tank? Things like its shape, slosh baffles etc so I can envision how fuel can trap out etc. Tomorrow I plan to take her up and experiment with the fuel tubes after 25 gallons is inserted! I think this all will make sense with a little experience. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Just now, cdarza said: This picture is taken from a Ctsw 2006 fuel tank. Inboard facing outboard. Behind that wall is the outboard part of the tank where the refuel cap is located. If my info is correct, those 6 holes are the 'baffles' (and yes, this is a very dirty tank) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Roger Lee said: Fuel selector work when you remember to switch tanks. Many a pilot has crashed with fuel in one tank and the other dry with the selector on the empty tank. Any system is only as good as the pilot. This is true! Another thing I need to mention! After yesterday's event afterward in the hanger I wanted to make sure fuel would indeed flow to the left tank. We rolled the right wheel on a two inch ramp and set the chock. This morning I went to the plane to check the tube levels and stick the tanks. The left low tank showed 15 gallons. Examining the cockpit site fuel tubes the right was at 8 or so and the left showed 9. Then I stick checked the high right wing that showed 8 inside the tube. Guess what the fuel stick measured? Zero no fuel. This makes sense as gravity flowed the fuel to the left tank. But why did the right tube show 8 gallons? Because the tube had 6 ounces of fuel in it showing 8 gallons but the tank was empty! Now in my episode could my right tube showed 9 gallons but the tank was empty? Maybe that's why when I turned the 180 and leveled she went to zero immediately? Instead of 9 gallons I had 9 ounces in the tube??? I wanted to add that 7 to 9 gallons of fuel still went somewhere for awhile and came back after the forced landing. I am now convinced that when I saw zero fuel in the left and 8 or so in the right and then turning left 180 degrees and leveling off just to show zero in the right what happened was the 5 ounces in the tube bubbled out and I lost power. Where was the 8 gallons?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Buckaroo, to understand the tanks you need to find a tall narrow straight sided glass. Fill it one fourth full. Take your hand and place it over the opening. Take and turn it on its side. Now tilt it side to side. You should now be able to see why the sight tube showed fuel and the other end of the tank didn't show any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 9 minutes ago, Tom Baker said: Buckaroo, to understand the tanks you need to find a tall narrow straight sided glass. Fill it one fourth full. Take your hand and place it over the opening. Take and turn it on its side. Now tilt it side to side. You should now be able to see why the sight tube showed fuel and the other end of the tank didn't show any. Ok thanks I understand your illustration! I'm a simple man and used to instruments and gauges like in my car. Why would any designer of such critical procedures like operation of an aircraft make it possible that a pilot may see a fuel site tube showing 10 gallons of gas with zero in the tank? 8 ounces of illusional fuel in the tube can kill! The more I study this the more I'm convinced my right tank tube indicated 5 or so ounces of fuel with 8 or 9 hidden somewhere in the system. Im not trying to cause a war! I just want to sort this out. I mean no ill feelings. I want to make this happen and enjoy my plane. I just want to be safe so let's iron this out!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 2 hours ago, cdarza said: This picture is taken from a Ctsw 2006 fuel tank. Inboard facing outboard. Behind that wall is the outboard part of the tank where the refuel cap is located. If my info is correct, those 6 holes are the 'baffles' (and yes, this is a very dirty tank) Thanks for this photo! There's no way I lost 9 gallons of fuel to the tip of the tank in a one minute 180 turn! I think the better explanation is my 9 gallons of fuel was a 8 ounce amount in the tube with questionable fuel somewhere. The fact is tho that in the hanger the next day I had 5 on the left stick and 8 on the right side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Buckaroo said: Ok thanks I understand your illustration! I'm a simple man and used to instruments and gauges like in my car. Why would any designer of such critical procedures like operation of an aircraft make it possible that a pilot may see a fuel site tube showing 10 gallons of gas with zero in the tank? 8 ounces of illusional fuel in the tube can kill! The more I study this the more I'm convinced my right tank tube indicated 5 or so ounces of fuel with 8 or 9 hidden somewhere in the system. Im not trying to cause a war! I just want to sort this out. I mean no ill feelings. I want to make this happen and enjoy my plane. I just want to be safe so let's iron this out!? This is why large aircraft use several devices to read multiple points in each tank, and calculate fuel from there; it avoids most false readings. This isn't feasible for small planes, so there's another way. My biggest piece of advice: Never fly below 5 gallons a side, or at least not below 5 gallons on the side that drains the fastest. The tank geometry just isn't ideal in CTs, nor for most high wings. Low wings have far less of a problem, mainly because of the greater dihedral and the installed boost pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 I was not there so this is only a possibility as others have mentioned: IF you were flying uncoordinated when you returned level after that turn, the 9 gallons would have been forced outwards and thus given you a zero reading and/or no fuel. Once coordinated flight (or on the ground) that fuel will return inboard of the tanks where it should be. Just for the fun of it, for my benefit and yours, i have attached a rather crude video i made demonstrating where that fuel goes in uncoordinated flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Whilst on this topic - Lets say the tanks are 10 gallons each side (total 20) You make a steep left banking turn. The left tank fuel is now going to the most outboard part of the tank yes...? ok.. So, what happens when the left tank fuel pick up tube is not picking up any fuel ? Is it sucking in air ? In this example, the right tank would be supplying the fuel but my curiosity is how does the left tank affect the fuel lines IF it is sucking in air instead of fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausctls Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 http://ctflier.com/index.php?/topic/3780-fuel-exhaustion-with-45-gallons-in-one-wing/ This forum is an invaluable resource Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 @cdarza you will be fine. The fuel is heavier than the air, and unless there's a restriction, it will not suck air. In fact, you'll have a little crossfeeding going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 20 minutes ago, ausctls said: http://ctflier.com/index.php?/topic/3780-fuel-exhaustion-with-45-gallons-in-one-wing/ This forum is an invaluable resource Thanks for that link- I forgot about this and thus this answers part of my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 If you had a estimated 5 gallons on the Left Tank and 15 gallons on the right tank; How long of flying with 'half ball' to the left do you think it would take to transfer 5 gallons of fuel from right to left tank. How long would it take with 'full ball' to the left ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Buckaroo, nice job staying cool. Being near that alfalfa field which didn't seem to have furrows and not be soft was lucky but it took a cool head to set up and land on it. There was a attempted landing on soybean field locally here that killed the pilot. Most of us have "calibrated" our sight tubes and this advice may be of use to you. Drain both tanks. Add 5 gallons to each. Mark your tubes with a paint pencil or put a red tie wrap around the tubes to tell you where the 5 gallons of fuel sits in the sight tube. The printed fuel level tapes on my CT were positioned before I bought my CT. Since I have not verified their accuracy, I don't trust these and ignore them. I know the markings on my sight tubes are accurate. FWIW, Jeremy's comments regarding cause of your fuel starvation are logical and based on experience. He's worked on a lot of Rotax powered aircraft, including a lot of Flight Designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 6 hours ago, JohnnyBlackCT said: I'm glad everything worked out OK for you and your plane. This is why I try to never get below 1/2 fuel. I'm a big guy and it's getting warm here fast. My thought was for performance safety I'd run 20 gallons. Flying Saturday doing TG's for an 45 minutes then Sunday flying again was my plan. WRONG! From now on I'm at 30 gallons and refueling at 15. This is fine I'll adapt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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