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Engine failure today and forced landing.


Buckaroo

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30 minutes ago, Runtoeat said:

Buckaroo, nice job staying cool.  Being near that alfalfa field which didn't seem to have furrows and not be soft was lucky but it took a cool head to set up and land on it.  There was a attempted landing on soybean field locally here that killed the pilot.  Most of us have "calibrated" our sight tubes and this advice may be of use to you.  Drain both tanks.  Add 5 gallons to each.  Mark your tubes with a paint pencil or put a red tie wrap around the tubes to tell you where the 5 gallons of fuel sits in the sight tube.  The printed fuel level tapes on my CT were positioned before I bought my CT.  Since I have not verified their accuracy, I don't trust these and ignore them.  I know the markings on my sight tubes are accurate.

FWIW, Jeremy's comments regarding cause of your fuel starvation are logical and based on experience.  He's worked on a lot of Rotax powered aircraft, including a lot of Flight Designs.

Thanks for the kind words! I love my CT so much I'm reading and digesting all these comments and recommendations with enthusiasm. 

This is a eye opener for me and I think in the end everything is going to be fine!?

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22 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

Even though you were making left turns in the pattern you were likely skidding the airplane around those turns. The big one is not enough rudder on climb out. I have enough time sitting in the right seat with students doing pattern work to know this is a real possibility.

You did mention your vents. They are easy to check, remove your fuel caps and blow through them. Also when installed the bevel cut in the hood of the vents should be exposed to the front of the airplane to provide some positive pressure.

Thanks Tom! Yes I checked the venting and they were fine. I have a little dab of green paint on the proper position of the vent.

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Buckaroo, there is no need to fly everywhere at full fuel.  Most of my flights are at 20-22 gallons.  The important point is to make sure when you are on level ground you see fuel in both tubes (a half full tube means the tank has ~5 gallon in it, consider that a minimum) before takeoff.  20 gallons evenly distributed between the tanks is the top of both sight tubes.  That amount of fuel will get you around two hours of flying (depending on your rpm setting) and still let you land with half full sight tubes.  You will never have a starvation issue under those conditions.  

Just take Tom's illustration of the glass to heart and you will always understand what's happening in your fuel system.  If you are in a coordinated turn, in theory the fuel stays pinned to the bottom of the tank and you should be able to get good readings from the sight tubes.  In practice, when rolling into/out of a turn or established in the turn the ball always shifts around a little, and fuel may slosh inboard or outboard and make readings suspect or just plain wrong.  Read the tubes in level flight only for planning purposes.

As I said in my previous post, the remedy here is prevention: *never* let a tank run dry, and this won't be a problem for you ever again.  You are better off with 3 gallons in each tank than 6 in one tank and the other dry.  I look at my sight tubes maybe every 5-10 minutes, which is often enough to see what the fuel burn trend is between tanks.  When it looks like one is draining faster than the other, I fly a ball out until they are close to even again.  When my tubes get down to about 2/3 full I will check and adjust more often.  At half tubes I'm watching them like a hawk and checking every minute or two; I've only done that a few times at the end of a very long leg.    

I think your idea of just going up and seeing how the sight tubes behave is a good one.  I'd do it with the tubes about 4/5 full, so you can see the fuel level in them and what they are doing, but still be confident that you won't have to plow another alfalfa field. :)  

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I have done quite a bit of flight training in my CT. My policy is never take of with less than 10 gallons for a hour flight. I also rarely take off with more than 20 total. if it is on the low side when we take off I watch the sight tubes like a hawk to make sure there is always fuel showing in both.

On a return trip from Oshkosh one year I let my fuel get down below 5 gallons total, but I had fuel showing in both sight tubes.

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One more thing that you mentioned is that your airplane sits a little tilted on the ground. Find a piece of plywood or other shim to position under the wheel on the low side to make the airplane sit level when parked. This will help you get more accurate fuel readings before you take off, and also keep fuel from flowing to the low wing while parked.

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For a one hour flight I'm fine with anything over 10 gallons.  I usually put all the fuel in one wing, it equalizes while I fly and I manage it when I fly.

Once you get a handle on successfully managing your fuel in flight the mystery and uncertainty and need for huge reserves go away.

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Thanks both of you for the insight! This is all making sense and easing my mind. 

My plane sits 3.5 inches low on the right wing tip. I measured from the wing area left and right. The plane is 1/8 inch lower on the right magnifying to 31/2 inches at tip. Needless to say my right site tube is always fullest. 

Right now I'm heading out to hop in the horse!

I will talk later!

Thanks 

 

 

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For admin. Is there any way for you to make some topics sticky so they stay at the top. Topics like this fuel management issue could then be in a New to CT Need to Know or something. I am new to CTs and learned about this only after my ferry pilot and I ran one tank dry on the way to SC. Fortunately the other tank was full so no big deal. I agree we should all seek to be trained by CT experienced people but that can be difficult in some parts of the country. 

Love the forum. 

Thanks in advance, 

 

Rich

 

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Great job handling your plane Buckaroo! I've had similar irritations with airplane fuel systems and wondered why they couldn't get it right. My training was in a low wing Evektor which had a boost pump and fuel selector switch (a prime reason students failed their checkride). Fuel sloshed back and forth in that one too, but mostly the concern was venting fuel out of the low wing. One day I was doing a solo runup. As I ran down the checklist it said check fuel pressure... it was zero! Quickly I noticed the fuel selector was at 'off'. So I had started, warmed up, taxied and was just inches from taking off. How could they design such a dangerous system? Well that's a low wing for you.

When I got my CTLS I was introduced to the problems that you are finding out about. I enjoyed not having to worry about an auxiliary pump, but didn't like the sound of having to watch the sight tubes all the time. Yesterday I went out with 22 gallons and flew T&G's, steep turns, slips.... no problems. On the ground I met a guy gassing up his Cessna 150 and he related that he had almost run his right tank dry because he forgot the fuel selector. It was then I realized I hadn't looked at my sight gauges all day. I guess I can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Oh well, the problem just goes on and on.

So these days I take off with at least 1/2 tanks and on cross country's watch the sight gauges for even flow when below 1/2 tanks. BTW I programmed my Garmin 696 to alert me every 1/2 hour to check the sight gauges. Enjoy that plane!

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2 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

I have done quite a bit of flight training in my CT. My policy is never take of with less than 10 gallons for a hour flight. I also rarely take off with more than 20 total. if it is on the low side when we take off I watch the sight tubes like a hawk to make sure there is always fuel showing in both.

On a return trip from Oshkosh one year I let my fuel get down below 5 gallons total, but I had fuel showing in both sight tubes.

Pretty much identical to how I do it.  

The longest leg I've flown in the CT was from Pontiac, Illinois to Winder, Georgia (also returning from Oshkosh!) -- 478nm.  We left with ~30 gallons fuel and planned a stop if needed.  At our stop fuel was looking good and we had plenty of airports along the way so we pressed forward and landed at Winder with about 6 gallons between both tanks.  Low but not scary low.  And that leg was flown at 5500rpm and about 125kt TAS burning about 6gph, because we were trying to beat some weather moving in to Georgia (we did).       

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11 hours ago, cdarza said:

If you had a estimated 5 gallons on the Left Tank and 15 gallons on the right tank;  How long of flying with 'half ball' to the left do you think it would take to transfer 5 gallons of fuel from right to left tank.  How long would it take with 'full ball' to the left ?   

As a rule of thumb, I use 10 minutes at a time. Fly 10 minutes, then recheck balance. Works well for me.

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5 gallons is a pretty large amount.  I'd guess that would take 20min or more with one ball out on the slip/skid ball.  But you also don't really have to worry about starvation when transferring fuel, because your engine is preferentially feeding from the more full tank during the process.  So your full tank is draining to both the engine and the other tank; that makes them even up a bit faster than just transferring fuel between tanks.

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Well I just got back from a wonderful flight! Fueled up with 25 gallons of fuel and practiced ball positioning for fuel balance. I'm so tall the left site tube is hard to see but now I'm tuned into the importance of doing this observation. 

Sorry if I came across bitchy but I was a little anxious from the soft landing event! 

I love my plane and wouldn't sell her for anything! 

Heres a few pics from my flight.

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On 5/8/2017 at 1:33 PM, Buckaroo said:

What seems to be the main reason 10 gallons of fuel suddenly disappears causing the engine failure then reappears on the ground? 

This bothers me most as only one member had a opinion! Ten gallons is a lot of fuel. 

Without being there I would say the cause of the disappearing fuel is that your turn was uncoordinated (in this case a skidding turn with the ball to the outside of the turn) thus "pushing" your fuel to the outside of the tank where it was not visible in the sight tube and was unporting the tank outlet. Easy to do in normal times and easier under stress.

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I have two questions on times for results to take place. Looking at the photo of the inside of the tank the first question is: in a turn like mine the other day how long does it take say 8 gallons of fuel to sling out and transfer through those 6 holes to the outside chamber?

Next how long does it take fuel to effectively flow from say the right side to the left resulting in a visible improvement in the condition of the site tube? Let's say my right site tube is 3/4 and my left is 1/4 with a full ball left from center how many seconds approximately would one expect both tubes to balance to 1/2?

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1 hour ago, WmInce said:

John,

Are you attending Page this year?

Andy and I are signed up and going. Hope to see you there.

I don't know yet. Probably should make reservations in case I do something unusual - like attend. I was just talking to Roger and that was the first question he asked.

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30 minutes ago, CT4ME said:

No expert here, and looking forward to others' ideas, but I don't think you would measure that in seconds.... maybe minutes... several.

Concerning my second question which is the important one to me now if traveling I am distracted or senile for a time then all of a sudden notice say my left site tube almost empty but my right say 3/4 with ball full out to the left by right rudder approximately how long does it take to be balanced? 

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