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FlyingMonkey

ICON Fatal Accident

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Video of crash... plenty of evidence of showboating... but, based on some comments, there "could" have been a control issue...  warning rough language

 

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It been kinda nice if someone had jumped in the water and tried to locate Roy! He might of been alive under the wreckage you never know.

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1 hour ago, Buckaroo said:

It been kinda nice if someone had jumped in the water and tried to locate Roy! He might of been alive under the wreckage you never know.

I was thinking the same thing.

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16 minutes ago, WmInce said:

Thanks for posting that, Ed.

 

Maneuvering at low altitude ending in a high energy impact.

Icon marketing sells both cool and easy even for a novice while offering BS low alt certifications.

I don't know at this point whether I want to blame the mentality of the marketing or the judgement of the pilot using  inadequate margins apparent in the final moments.

 

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44 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Maneuvering at low altitude ending in a high energy impact.

Icon marketing sells both cool and easy even for a novice while offering BS low alt certifications.

I don't know at this point whether I want to blame the mentality of the marketing or the judgement of the pilot using  inadequate margins apparent in the final moments.

My gut feeling is, it's a combination of both. The former seems to support the latter.

Cool little device . . . as long as it's right side up.

All I know is . . . I don't want one.

 

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I wonder if his speed out of that diving turn was so excessive that it caused a pitch control anomaly causing total loss of control!🤓

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On 11/8/2017 at 9:22 AM, FlyingMonkey said:

I think part of the problem is marketing.  Icon describes the A5 as being like "a jet ski with wings".  Well, a jet ski is easy to use, and anybody can get the hang of it, so the A5 must be similar...right?

These airplanes are not designed as traveling airplanes, but as fun toys.  Look at the Icon web page.  There is embedded video playing, and I encourage you to watch the whole thing, it's probably 30-60 seconds long.  It shows A5s zooming down rivers, over glassy water, and across terrain.  Never at over 100ft AGL.  On their "photos" page there is not a single picture of an ICON flying above 2000ft AGL.  They are marketing this as something to be flown in literally the MOST dangerous way you can fly an airplane.

https://www.iconaircraft.com/home

Ding , Ding , Ding !   We have a Winner ! Marketing is partly to blame. Just read the article in Flying Mag. , Jan. 2017. "This kind of flying is what the Icon A 5 is made for" Picture shows aircraft wing low a few feet over the water. A cartwheel waiting to happen. It is not a toy.

Cheers

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The word showboating continues to be used with this story but what I see and what that word implies might be 2 different things.

I see someone maneuvering in an aimless somewhat pointless kind of way.  I see nothing pretty or fun or precise or even complete.

Light sport 'showboating' in my mind involves a more impressive display of the plane and pilot's abilities.  

-----------------------------------------

An Icon5 can be safely flown in a manner consistent with their marketing.  Adequate skills, judgement and margin all looked to be lacking in Roy's flying.

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Perhaps, we can all agree that the FAA ADM "hazardous attitude" term "macho" applies...  perhaps with a bit of impulsivity and invulnerability thrown in....

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The only thing remarkable in the video or tweet is the high energy impact.

This says nothing about the design its not supposed to survive such an event.

The evidenced is incriminating if you want it to be or explained away easily. 

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I would agree, most of the maneuvers were pretty stock amphibian fare. The beach denizens don't seem to realize the plane is an amphibian and is operating legally as near as I can tell. The one thing that bothers me early on is a steep turn less than 100 agl. Icon seems to have a penchant for initiating turns with a wing almost dragging in the water. When the wind is brisk like it was, the plane will behave differently in those turns depending on if its upwind or down. That can put the wing tip into the water and its over in a millisecond.

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Yup, a downwind crash can be twice the energy compared to a upwind set down. That’s why I always am aware of the wind direction when I’m flying! It can be the difference between surviving or impacting really hard!

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Yes, I understand what you were driving at. I just wanted to make a very important point that is flyers should always be aware of. 

Stall speed 50 with 10 knot headwind = 40. 

Stall speed 50 with 10 knot tail wind = 60. 

The difference is life or death! 

Always know your surface winds and constantly be ready to set her down in the safest configuration! 

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Nobody is disputing that groundspeed is lower when landing into the wind.  Nobody.  

The point I was making is that when airborne, the plane doesn't fly differently when making an upwind turn versus making a downwind turn.  I was making that point in direct response to a statement made in a previous post.  

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8 hours ago, FredG said:

Nobody is disputing that groundspeed is lower when landing into the wind.  Nobody.  

The point I was making is that when airborne, the plane doesn't fly differently when making an upwind turn versus making a downwind turn.  I was making that point in direct response to a statement made in a previous post.  

Gotcha!😉

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I have about 2,000 hours flying low level doing various patrols. Because it was a job we had to go even when it was windy. To expand on what Fred said, The fact that wind has an effect on a airplane while it is turning is an illusion based on visual sensory perception of the relationship to the ground. That being said if you have a strong wind near the surface while you are flying, the turbulence from surface features can upset a stabilized turn.

To prove the point that wind doesn't effect the turn go flying with an instructor or safety pilot some time. At altitude on a windy day do some turns under simulated instruments. Using only attitude, airspeed, and altimeter see if you can determine what direction the wind is from. Without any reference to your position in the air mass you can't do it.

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1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

I have about 2,000 hours flying low level doing various patrols. Because it was a job we had to go even when it was windy. To expand on what Fred said, The fact that wind has an effect on a airplane while it is turning is an illusion based on visual sensory perception of the relationship to the ground. That being said if you have a strong wind near the surface while you are flying, the turbulence from surface features can upset a stabilized turn.

To prove the point that wind doesn't effect the turn go flying with an instructor or safety pilot some time. At altitude on a windy day do some turns under simulated instruments. Using only attitude, airspeed, and altimeter see if you can determine what direction the wind is from. Without any reference to your position in the air mass you can't do it.

At minimum altitude the visual begins to have a lot of impact.  A downwind turn can feel like there is a lot of acceleration and the upwind the opposite. 

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5 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

At minimum altitude the visual begins to have a lot of impact.  A downwind turn can feel like there is a lot of acceleration and the upwind the opposite. 

I agree the visual has a impact on the brain. The illusion is so powerful that people will argue to the death that wind effects how a airplane turns.

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6 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

A downwind turn can feel like there is a lot of acceleration and the upwind the opposite. 

With your eyes closed, you'll never know the difference.

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